How great is the risk (in your perception)?

[wedivebc]

Benefit of the doubt time here, but maybe those who are equating team bailout to OC single tank diving don't understand how TBO works.
For a given group there will be a number of tanks among the members that will be required to get a stricken diver to the surface. Each diver still carries a bottom bailout with sufficient gas to get themselves sorted and begin ascent. This is unlike OC singles diving where a single failure can result in an immediate OOG scenario TBO does not do that. Furthermore a dive is aborted at the first major system failure. Loss of contact with a member of the team is a system failure and the dive is aborted. There are lots of divers doing lots of dives where each member carrying all the gas required for a solo ascent is just not practical.
The strange part is it seems to be the ones who are most practised in team diving are the ones most vocal in condemning our practices.

 

[PfcAJ]

Benefit of the doubt time here, but maybe those who are equating team bailout to OC single tank diving don't understand how TBO works.
For a given group there will be a number of tanks among the members that will be required to get a stricken diver to the surface. Each diver still carries a bottom bailout with sufficient gas to get themselves sorted and begin ascent. This is unlike OC singles diving where a single failure can result in an immediate OOG scenario TBO does not do that. Furthermore a dive is aborted at the first major system failure. Loss of contact with a member of the team is a system failure and the dive is aborted. There are lots of divers doing lots of dives where each member carrying all the gas required for a solo ascent is just not practical.
The strange part is it seems to be the ones who are most practised in team diving are the ones most vocal in condemning our practices.

I get how it works.

My point is that TBO is for some reason the only time it's "ok" (in the kids of some) to be dependent on others. Even if it's not immediate, the fact remains that you can't complete the dive without help just because a dive trinket breaks.

Buddy separation *shouldnt* happen, but unfortunately it does. I'd argue that it's even more likely on a deep dive, lower vis, colder water. All areas where rebreathers bring significant advantages to the table. Additionally, a condition which causes one to bailout could also be one that impacts cognition, further increasing the likelihood of losing ones buddy.

And for what? To not take a few scuba tanks? Any OW dive (save for those silly world record attempts and look-how-deep-I-can-go ego dives) can easily be done without resorting to team bailout. Evidence? USS Atlanta project. Purdy deep, purdy remote. Even Florida east coast hot drops with ripping currents, sometimes questionable vis, scooters, and 240'+ depths are downright trivial to do with a solid bailout plan.

Even on a big long cave dive with insane deco and distances, at no point should one be *dependent* on ones buddy. Evidence? World record penetration in Cathedral, routine 8hr plus cave dives by WKPP and KUR, and deep/remote stuff in the Philippines by AKEP.

Any time someone says "it can't be done" I audibly groan, roll my eyes, and think of all these projects and dives where folks somehow manage to get it done. It just takes some discipline, planning, ability to say "that's not a good idea", and a bit of work.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

It's not nearly that bad here compared to elsewhere. Controversy is good, but passive aggressive crap like this only detracts from the readability and usefulness of the thread. They think they come across as smart but never get past being only a smart alec. There are a number of modalities that I don't use because I don't understand them, so I don't feel safe trying to use them or they're simply beyond any need I have for diving. That doesn't mean I don't want to be educated about them and calling them "dumb" or similar only devolves the conversation to name calling and posturing. Check your ego at the door and stick to the topic at hand.

It’s dogma, cultish dogma that I mistakenly thought was checking itself.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I get how it works

I don’t think so.

 

[PfcAJ]

I don’t think so.

Enlighten me.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Enlighten me.

Not a chance ... the bulb is dim. The dogma is blinding.

 

[The Chairman]

Enlighten me.

Not a chance ... the bulb is dim. The dogma is blinding.

See how you've shut down discussion @PfcAJ ???

 

[PfcAJ]

Not a chance ... the bulb is dim. The dogma is blinding.

Ok Jim.

I think it's pretty clear to anyone with even a bit of sense that TBO is a poor practice propagated by lazy and/or unskilled divers.

 

[PfcAJ]

See how you've shut down discussion @PfcAJ ???

"Explain"

"Nah I can't explain, too lazy".

Sums it up pretty well, pete. Good job calling everyone's attention to it.

 

[tbone1004]

I'm with @PfcAJ on this one. TBO makes 0 sense in OW, but even in a cave, if you're doing dives that big, just do a setup dive the day before and bring everything in ahead of time if it is impractical to carry with you. Sure it's an extra dive, but if you're doing stuff that big doing a setup dive to make sure that you take the time to ensure everything is where it is supposed to be isn't going to off you. On the way out you can grab what you can and start shuffling it close to the entrance if you can't bring it all out.

Things I can see TBO being used for.
Buddy bottles that are just adding extra conservatism but are outside of the amount of gas you SHOULD be able to bring out. I.e. we bring an extra AL80 of O2 in for the team, and we usually bring at least one extra AL80 just in case *mainly hypercapnia as I'm particularly sensitive to CO2 headaches*, but everyone has 1.5x-2x the gas they should need to get out.
The extra scooter is a team scooter but that is more for convenience as we all have gas enough to kick out so it's to make the deco obligation more tolerable.
Neither of those are necessary, just warm fuzzy conveniences that aren't really "bailout" options