How great is the risk (in your perception)?

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maybe someday I'll do a real dive.

You've got guys in the ocean doing 20min exposures at 200ft doing this team bailout nonsense.

In any case your description of that dive is vague enough to where I can't make any sort of judgement at all. 7 stages? Like bottom stages? Or deco bottles? Some
Combo of those? Pls elaborate.

When it comes to bailout planning, ask yourself this: if my rebreather broke and I looked around and my buddy was nowhere to be found, could I finish the dive?

If no, you need to reevaluateyour situation.
personally Ive never heard of this type of "team bailout' strategy for 200' dives where you take less gas and one failure is a major issue then rely on your buddies -maybe its localised thing, my dive friends always dive as independents until the logistics are too clumsy to manage as @wedivebc outlined
 
personally Ive never heard of this type of "team bailout' strategy for 200' dives where you take less gas and one failure is a major issue then rely on your buddies -maybe its localised thing, my dive friends always dive as independents until the logistics are too clumsy to manage as @wedivebc outlined
I'm curious as to the dives your pals doing that preclude carrying their own gas.
 
I'm curious as to the dives your pals doing that preclude carrying their own gas.
whats you definition of 'diving as independants'
 
So, you obviously don't have a clue about team bail out. Kewl. Why act like you do? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but give it a rest. When you get all confrontational about how "dumb" something is but don't understand the underlying premises of the strategy, you end up sounding ignorant. I've yet to hear of a single accident caused by this strategy ever and the divers I know who do use it, do a great job of planning and executing their dives. It's not like some fidiot who jumps in with no plan, insufficient bail out and a "Jesus is my Co-Pilot" bumper sticker. One of the biggest problems with tech divers is a lack of respect for those who dive differently than you. I don't get it.
Hmm..actually I know of a few incidents. Some that lead to death, and one at a high profile rebreather event in Cayman where it was only because there was a gaggle of divers in the water that could donate gas, however the actual "planned team" gas was nowhere near enough.
 
whats you definition of 'diving as independants'
Not reliant.

Just to be clear, not relying on a buddy isn't the same as not needing to dive with a buddy, in my opinion. I think buddy diving and buddy skills are extremely important.
 
It sounds to me like you have formed a strong opinion with little or no knowledge on the subject. Most big dives are planned using team bailout. We once did a cave dive that required 7 stages for 3 divers. If we had each carried enough bailout in order to mitigate 3 simultanious failures (which is what your scenario seems to suggest) we would have required 21 bailout tanks. Since this was in the jungle in Thailand the logistics would have been impossible. Maybe if you ever do some big boy diving you'll understand.
That's too funny... :p:wink:
 
If moderators want to break the Team Bail Out thread off on its own - ok, until then I'll contribute here.

Team bailout is very much like going back to single cylinder diving.
With the exception of my PADI OW course, and the initial part of my SD course, I have always had fully independent bailout. i.e. I probably had less than 15 dives. when I started carrying a pony (3l cylinder).

The only time I dive a single cylinder (i.e. no independent bailout) is holiday diving overseas. i.e. The odd dive in the USA, diving in Malta, the Red Sea, etc.
I am not entirely comfortable in this circumstance.
Similarly, I have never been a great fan of removing stage cylinders and leaving them on the bottom to come back to.

Diving on a single cylinder, means you are reliant on your buddy to get you back to the surface if you have a failure.
Team bailout, you are reliant on your buddies to get you back to the surface. The upside is that initially, you can bailout on to your OC gas, whilst you sort out the ascent with your buddy.
Granted single cylinder diving you potentially can make a direct ascent to the surface using (buddy) team bailout, that won't be the case with a technical dive team bailout.
 
So, you obviously don't have a clue about team bail out. Kewl. Why act like you do? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but give it a rest. When you get all confrontational about how "dumb" something is but don't understand the underlying premises of the strategy, you end up sounding ignorant. I've yet to hear of a single accident caused by this strategy ever and the divers I know who do use it, do a great job of planning and executing their dives. It's not like some fidiot who jumps in with no plan, insufficient bail out and a "Jesus is my Co-Pilot" bumper sticker. One of the biggest problems with tech divers is a lack of respect for those who dive differently than you. I don't get it.

Pete pretty much nails the primary reason I don't post much here anymore, and the same issue essentially killed the Cave Divers forum.

It comes down to personality traits and having too many cave and technical divers that are way too ego driven. The smallish percentage who cause this problem either have a need to be the big man on campus, or they have a need to impress the big man on campus and thus belong to what they perceive as the in crowd.

If you're a diver with good critical thinking and good analytical skills, who bases his or her knowledge on a lot more than just authoritarian learning gained in class, and dives based on what actually makes sense for you and your team, you'll be doing something that someone in they in crowd objects to and you'll get dumped on for it by the most ignorant among them because it makes them feel more competent. If that sounds familiar it's because you probably encountered it in jr. high school. Same phenomenon, same underlying reasons.

Life is too short for that ****, and it's not just not worth anyone's time to try to teach them to look at things from a critical thinking perspective.

But, to a great extent those same factors and learning modalities do I think play into the original question
 
How risky are rebreathers as compared to open circuit at technical depths (below 130)? What is the greatest risk? Unit flooding? O2 sensors going wonkers? If someone could offer insights into the risk of rebreather diving in comparison with open circuit technical diving what would be great!

Not all rebreathers are the same and the failure modes and vulnerabilities of each can be slightly different.

If you dive an eCCR, the risk is complacency in letting the unit manage the PPO2, which works great until the unit fails and either stops adding O2 or adds to much. If the diver isn't also monitoring the machine, the results can be fatal, and unless something has changes, the accident rate on e CCRs is higher than the rate on mCCRs - although you have to also control for the greater depths where leaky valve mCCRs are used not used as much given the modifications needed to operate much below 250'-300'. Still, the smarter eCCR divers I know dive them manually, by manually maintaining a set point higher than the PPO2 the unit is maintaining, which means the unit'sPPO2 monitoring is just a back up. This provides a safety net if the diver is distracted, and preserves battery life as there is no need for a solenoid to fire.

If you dive an mCCR, there are no on board batteries (outside the dive computer) and no solenoids to fail, and since you have to maintain the set point manually, there is both a reduced risk of complacency and a better/faster understanding of the conditions that will affect changes in PPO2, as well as an awareness when the unit is still operating, but is not operating optimally - i.e. identifying when an imminent failure or problem is headed your way. But, if there is a problem, (such as a partially plugged orifice, or a much higher than normal workload) and the diver is also distracted to the point of ignoring and failing to monitor the PPO2 for more than 4 or 5 minutes then the results can be fatal.

The key piece of accident prevention with either mCCR or eCCR is the diver. Things that make CCR diving safer for a diver are:

- better understanding of the theory of CCR diving;

- better understanding of the specific failure modes of his or her specific CCR;

- better understanding and experience with different failure recovery options, both short of and including bailout;

- more experience diving his or her specific CCR in demanding and varied condition;

- more experience with real world problems and failures on their unit before progressing to edge of the envelope situations; and

- careful attention to detail in maintaining, checking and cross checking the CCR both before, during and after the dive.

Few of the above items are obtainable in class (at least to an adequate degree), some of them come with experience, but most of them require a degree of independent research and critical thinking that a fair percentage of CCR divers just don't have.

Which means three things:

1) CCR diving is not for everyone;

2) some CCR divers are at greater risk of killing themselves on their unit than others; and

3) those most at risk are also the least likely to know it.

The most at risk in number 3, are those divers who know what they know solely based on what someone in authority has told them, and have not added to this level of knowledge by applying the scientific method (through their own experience and testing), logic, or the application of philosophy. All four ways of knowing something are important in decision making when you encounter pros and cons, and comparative risks and benefits that must be balanced to produce an optimal outcome.
 
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Pete pretty much nails the primary reason I don't post much here anymore
It's not nearly that bad here compared to elsewhere. Controversy is good, but passive aggressive crap like this only detracts from the readability and usefulness of the thread. They think they come across as smart but never get past being only a smart alec. There are a number of modalities that I don't use because I don't understand them, so I don't feel safe trying to use them or they're simply beyond any need I have for diving. That doesn't mean I don't want to be educated about them and calling them "dumb" or similar only devolves the conversation to name calling and posturing. Check your ego at the door and stick to the topic at hand.
 

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