Arrogance and humility among divers

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Great post and yes, it's a serious issue in our sport.

I don't really have a good answer for you. I've had similar experiences.

I can only speak for myself but I found diving a lot less "political" when I was just learning. I made maybe my first 600 dives (first 10 years or so) blissfully unaware of the opinions of others. I had my group of friends, we went diving, we had fun.

Then I discovered the internet. For the first time I saw divers critiquing each others skills. It happened on un-moderated forums. Some good information was exchanged but there was a LOT of **** talking and a surprising number of threads devolved into discussions about politics and guns. In that time I certain discussion even ended in my receiving what I believed was a very credible death threat because I disagreed with someone.

Since then the politics have remained. I joined scubaboard in 2002 IIRC and the DIR wars were still smoldering. I think that the DIR wars did two things to our sport.

1) It made a large number of active divers aware of a new paradigm for safety and equipment configuration
and
2) It created a vast rift between like minded individuals.

DIR made arrogance OK. In fact, DIR made arrogance the norm in the mid to late 1990's. I would submit that during the DIR wars George Irvine was single-handedly responsible for alienating more divers than any other individual in the history of diving. He normalized arrogance as being equivalent to being right and he modeled a highly dysfunctional form of communication. The damage was severe in the least.

The flip side, however, is that he established, for the very first time, a coherent set of best practices in diving that we had never had before (or since).

The problem was that it was black and white. Either you were DIR or you were not DIR. At some point I even heard that "DIR divers never die, they just become strokes". There was little to no constructive dialogue possible between the DIR "community" and everyone else. To some extent this is still going on although the pressure on the community has been reduced a lot.

In my personal experience I was one of those divers who wanted to take the good and leave the bad about DIR, especially having come off the heals of the DIR wars. In my local community that was nonnegotiable. Conflicts arose as I tried to discuss the possibility of a middle-road and eventually I was labeled a stroke... "the UBER-stroke" because I dared to try starting a dialogue about it. I was ostracized and many very hurtful (and untrue) things were posted on the internet about me. This was the first time I really felt discriminated against due to arrogance. It was also the first time when I realized that scuba diving had been politicized by DIR.

Meanwhile on scubaboard we were locked in battle about "agency bashing". A new kind of arrogance had emerged, namely, which agency was best...... There were differences but people were making severe value judgments about those differences. I think the high point was when one of the directors (or soon to be directors) of CMAS came on scubaboard and posed as "just another instructor" and spent a year or more tearing PADI down.... while those of us who had any energy left corrected him time after time after time time after time after time time after time after time time after time after time

To no avail. This was the ultimate arrogance about agencies, if you ask me. GUE did their own thing and their message was not always easy to hear but this CMAS guy is the one who put the arrogance into agency bashing.

Thankfully CMAS directorate made him stop so at this point in time we have a PAX-SCUBA.

GUE is still doing their own thing. in DIR the politics are still strong but the best practices are much more accessible to the general public than in the past and agency bashing isn't being done at the executive level anymore....

To my way of thinking we had 10 or so bad years but that we are now profiting more from those years more than we suffer.

R..

The various agencies may be "profiting".

The dive industry is devastated. Sales down about 50% in the last decade.

Actual new dive certifications way lower.

Short courses, the rec/tech conflict, all have resulted in way fewer, and many under trained new divers.
 
The various agencies may be "profiting".

The dive industry is devastated. Sales down about 50% in the last decade.

Actual new dive certifications way lower.

Short courses, the rec/tech conflict, all have resulted in way fewer, and many under trained new divers.

Your point?

R..
 
I know the person who for years was the only GUE instructor in Hawaii, and she gave me a rec pass 1st time out. Though admittedly it was not in Hawaii, maybe it’s an island thing.
The person I am referring to lived in cave country at the time of her first funnies course. I believe your GUE instructor and my NAUI rep are fast friends and I will see them at DEMA.
 
There was a staff member at a dive shop we used to frequent that a lot of people found arrogant and well.. sexist. I am pretty mellow but he really managed to annoy the heck out of me. It took a few years but I gave him enough rope to hang himself. I admit I did spoon feed him the opportunity to really make a fool of himself in front of his band of followers. In that case he deserved what he got. He could have easily avoided the embarrassment by behaving like a bigmouth know it all.:no:

The use of his name and ridicule in the Dive Magazine really wasn't my fault or my intention. I guess I am saying that the really Arrogant ones will eventually be shown for what they are and suffer the consequences of their behavior. We don't need to do anything and It is so much more satisfying when they do it to themselves anyway!

IMHO the truly Arrogant ones are very rare. Most of the time people just misunderstand the intentions of someone who is enthusiastic.

I was always told that when you blow your own horn people tune you out. When someone else blows your horn people pay attention.
 
Great post and yes, it's a serious issue in our sport.

I don't really have a good answer for you. I've had similar experiences.

I can only speak for myself but I found diving a lot less "political" when I was just learning. I made maybe my first 600 dives (first 10 years or so) blissfully unaware of the opinions of others. I had my group of friends, we went diving, we had fun.

Then I discovered the internet. For the first time I saw divers critiquing each others skills. It happened on un-moderated forums. Some good information was exchanged but there was a LOT of **** talking and a surprising number of threads devolved into discussions about politics and guns. In that time I certain discussion even ended in my receiving what I believed was a very credible death threat because I disagreed with someone.

Since then the politics have remained. I joined scubaboard in 2002 IIRC and the DIR wars were still smoldering. I think that the DIR wars did two things to our sport.

1) It made a large number of active divers aware of a new paradigm for safety and equipment configuration
and
2) It created a vast rift between like minded individuals.

DIR made arrogance OK. In fact, DIR made arrogance the norm in the mid to late 1990's. I would submit that during the DIR wars George Irvine was single-handedly responsible for alienating more divers than any other individual in the history of diving. He normalized arrogance as being equivalent to being right and he modeled a highly dysfunctional form of communication. The damage was severe in the least.

The flip side, however, is that he established, for the very first time, a coherent set of best practices in diving that we had never had before (or since).

The problem was that it was black and white. Either you were DIR or you were not DIR. At some point I even heard that "DIR divers never die, they just become strokes". There was little to no constructive dialogue possible between the DIR "community" and everyone else. To some extent this is still going on although the pressure on the community has been reduced a lot.

In my personal experience I was one of those divers who wanted to take the good and leave the bad about DIR, especially having come off the heals of the DIR wars. In my local community that was nonnegotiable. Conflicts arose as I tried to discuss the possibility of a middle-road and eventually I was labeled a stroke... "the UBER-stroke" because I dared to try starting a dialogue about it. I was ostracized and many very hurtful (and untrue) things were posted on the internet about me. This was the first time I really felt discriminated against due to arrogance. It was also the first time when I realized that scuba diving had been politicized by DIR.

Meanwhile on scubaboard we were locked in battle about "agency bashing". A new kind of arrogance had emerged, namely, which agency was best...... There were differences but people were making severe value judgments about those differences. I think the high point was when one of the directors (or soon to be directors) of CMAS came on scubaboard and posed as "just another instructor" and spent a year or more tearing PADI down.... while those of us who had any energy left corrected him time after time after time time after time after time time after time after time time after time after time

To no avail. This was the ultimate arrogance about agencies, if you ask me. GUE did their own thing and their message was not always easy to hear but this CMAS guy is the one who put the arrogance into agency bashing.

Thankfully CMAS directorate made him stop so at this point in time we have a PAX-SCUBA.

GUE is still doing their own thing. in DIR the politics are still strong but the best practices are much more accessible to the general public than in the past and agency bashing isn't being done at the executive level anymore....

To my way of thinking we had 10 or so bad years but that we are now profiting more from those years more than we suffer.

R..

Well said.
When I joined this board on '05 there was still a great deal of fallout, anger, sniping and tension from what you call the DIR wars, and I have to say there was still quite a bit of vocal anger on both sides, that drove many divers away from SB forever.

In the 17 years since I first came on board the turmoil in the sport and on various websites has not completely disappeared, but at least here on SB it sure has faded considerably from that time.

I was lucky enough to meet a tolerant group on SB, the DNY crew who were welcoming to all, and so got to dive with and train with a mixture of DIR and recreational divers, even taking a couple of DIR focused classes with Bob Sherwood, though I never went totally DIR.

Having now trained with 4 different agencies, I would say they all produce value. Although they each approach training from different angles, and even aim their courses at different segments of the diving public, or those interested in joining the diving public, I have come to believe that the various agencies contribute to, and even complement each other, in allowing divers to pursue a great variety of areas of this sport that no one agency can do all by itself.

Like the author above, I picked from each agency, including the GUE, DIR, things of great value to me as a diver, yet I could never be labeled a DIR Diver as I will always pick and choose the gear and techniques that best fit my style, wishes and needs. I am OK if someone chooses to judge me, since I see little value in accepting such judgement from those I do not choose to dive with.

Having the perspective of decades and a variety of training experience, I feel that as the shadow of those nasty DIR wars fades, the sport has been improved immensely by the gradual blending of approaches, and the realization that there is no ONE True Way, that there are tools and techniques that are specific and best for certain, more "technical" activities, that may "bleed over" into other areas of the sport, without the need to adopt each and every nuance of the technical gear and practice.
 
I witnessed the funniest inadvertent slap down of a professional photographer, and the guy kind of deserved it. He shot a digital Hasselblad and probably had at $50+K in equipment. He had buttonholed me on the back of the boat and had this wry smile as he showed off his toys, including a rebreather and justified his expense by constantly reminding me how important he was to the dive magazines. I was trying to break away without deflating his balloon, when this Aussie walked around us to get on board. She said "Ohhhhh, such a nice camera, I bet you can get some great piccies with that. Just point and shoot, eh?" Before he could get past being stunned, she was on the boat and on to other things. He was crest fallen. "Just" point and shoot? he repeated that mantra over and over and it was hard not to bust out laughing. It showed me that when your arrogance is based in your equipment, then your accomplishments will be minimized.

Caveat #1... he tried to approach her a few times on the boat to explain to her how great a photographer he was and his success was more in his technique and not just a high end camera he can "Point and shoot". On one such attempt, I heard her proclaim "You're a photographer then? Take a piccie of my mate and me then would you?" At which point, she grabbed the boy she was with and posed. He was flabbergasted as he had come over to straighten her out, not to take her pic. Again, laughter would have been wrong and I was able to suppress it.

Caveat #2... As we were about to splash, I turned to him and said "Point and shoot... don't forget!" just before I went in. He rolled his eyes and flipped me a bird. Every time I see him, I tease him about it.
 
Great post and yes, it's a serious issue in our sport.

I don't really have a good answer for you. I've had similar experiences.

I can only speak for myself but I found diving a lot less "political" when I was just learning. I made maybe my first 600 dives (first 10 years or so) blissfully unaware of the opinions of others. I had my group of friends, we went diving, we had fun.

Then I discovered the internet. For the first time I saw divers critiquing each others skills. It happened on un-moderated forums. Some good information was exchanged but there was a LOT of **** talking and a surprising number of threads devolved into discussions about politics and guns. In that time I certain discussion even ended in my receiving what I believed was a very credible death threat because I disagreed with someone.

Since then the politics have remained. I joined scubaboard in 2002 IIRC and the DIR wars were still smoldering. I think that the DIR wars did two things to our sport.

1) It made a large number of active divers aware of a new paradigm for safety and equipment configuration
and
2) It created a vast rift between like minded individuals.

DIR made arrogance OK. In fact, DIR made arrogance the norm in the mid to late 1990's. I would submit that during the DIR wars George Irvine was single-handedly responsible for alienating more divers than any other individual in the history of diving. He normalized arrogance as being equivalent to being right and he modeled a highly dysfunctional form of communication. The damage was severe in the least.

The flip side, however, is that he established, for the very first time, a coherent set of best practices in diving that we had never had before (or since).

The problem was that it was black and white. Either you were DIR or you were not DIR. At some point I even heard that "DIR divers never die, they just become strokes". There was little to no constructive dialogue possible between the DIR "community" and everyone else. To some extent this is still going on although the pressure on the community has been reduced a lot.

In my personal experience I was one of those divers who wanted to take the good and leave the bad about DIR, especially having come off the heals of the DIR wars. In my local community that was nonnegotiable. Conflicts arose as I tried to discuss the possibility of a middle-road and eventually I was labeled a stroke... "the UBER-stroke" because I dared to try starting a dialogue about it. I was ostracized and many very hurtful (and untrue) things were posted on the internet about me. This was the first time I really felt discriminated against due to arrogance. It was also the first time when I realized that scuba diving had been politicized by DIR.

Meanwhile on scubaboard we were locked in battle about "agency bashing". A new kind of arrogance had emerged, namely, which agency was best...... There were differences but people were making severe value judgments about those differences. I think the high point was when one of the directors (or soon to be directors) of CMAS came on scubaboard and posed as "just another instructor" and spent a year or more tearing PADI down.... while those of us who had any energy left corrected him time after time after time time after time after time time after time after time time after time after time

To no avail. This was the ultimate arrogance about agencies, if you ask me. GUE did their own thing and their message was not always easy to hear but this CMAS guy is the one who put the arrogance into agency bashing.

Thankfully CMAS directorate made him stop so at this point in time we have a PAX-SCUBA.

GUE is still doing their own thing. in DIR the politics are still strong but the best practices are much more accessible to the general public than in the past and agency bashing isn't being done at the executive level anymore....

To my way of thinking we had 10 or so bad years but that we are now profiting more from those years more than we suffer.

R..

Your point?

That the DIR wars and agency bashing are the source of the arrogance that people sometimes run across these days?

Day-to-day at dive shops and dive sites, what I see doesn't seem like it comes from either of those two things.

What I see is a stratification based on C cards that results in some people taking their C card as a license to feel superior. That seems to have a natural follow-on of feeling superior even when it's just based on number of dives logged.

And it all seems to be more prevalent in scuba because, in my opinion, scuba is somewhat unusual among extreme sports* in how it affords so much opportunity for people to hide behind their keyboard and liability waivers. Among motorcycle riders (as one example), it's pretty easy to call someone out and settle whose pee pee is actually bigger. One trip to the racetrack and braggart poseurs are easily identified. In scuba, it is MUCH less likely to see an arrogant braggart called out and proven to either be The Real Deal or a pure Internet Diver. When there is a real chance you'll be called out and shown to be full of hot air, people tend to be a bit less likely to spout off. Nobody likes having their pee pee actually measured and found to be short of their claims.

My personal experiences with diver arrogance don't seem to be based on DIR vs non-DIR or XYZ Agency vs ABC Agency. It almost always seems to be tech divers looking down on recreational divers. Or even tech divers looking down on other tech divers because they have a lower level cert or even just a lesser number of dives. I suppose it probably happens from "Rescue" divers looking down on "mere" AOW divers - but I haven't personally seen it yet. Other than tech divers, I've only really seen it from recreational divers who are arrogant about their SAC, and I haven't seen that very often.

Maybe we should blame it on the push to break training down in to shorter/smaller chunks which has resulted in so MANY certifications now. The more there are, the more opportunities there are for people to feel superior for having a card that someone else doesn't have.

* I classify scuba as an extreme sport. As soon as the first scuba-related world record was declared, it became a sport, in my eyes. And now there are "records" for deepest OC dive, longest cave penetration, etc., etc.. Just as with, for example, motorcycles, not everyone engages in it as a sport, but it is a sport, in my opinion, nonetheless.
 
I witnessed the funniest inadvertent slap down of a professional photographer, and the guy kind of deserved it. He shot a digital Hasselblad and probably had at $50+K in equipment. He had buttonholed me on the back of the boat and had this wry smile as he showed off his toys, including a rebreather and justified his expense by constantly reminding me how important he was to the dive magazines. I was trying to break away without deflating his balloon, when this Aussie walked around us to get on board. She said "Ohhhhh, such a nice camera, I bet you can get some great piccies with that. Just point and shoot, eh?" Before he could get past being stunned, she was on the boat and on to other things. He was crest fallen. "Just" point and shoot? he repeated that mantra over and over and it was hard not to bust out laughing. It showed me that when your arrogance is based in your equipment, then your accomplishments will be minimized.

Caveat #1... he tried to approach her a few times on the boat to explain to her how great a photographer he was and his success was more in his technique and not just a high end camera he can "Point and shoot". On one such attempt, I heard her proclaim "You're a photographer then? Take a piccie of my mate and me then would you?" At which point, she grabbed the boy she was with and posed. He was flabbergasted as he had come over to straighten her out, not to take her pic. Again, laughter would have been wrong and I was able to suppress it.

Caveat #2... As we were about to splash, I turned to him and said "Point and shoot... don't forget!" just before I went in. He rolled his eyes and flipped me a bird. Every time I see him, I tease him about it.

When one climbs up on the soapbox they should remember that what they see as their pulpit, others may see differently:

image-165.png
 
My personal experiences with diver arrogance don't seem to be based on DIR vs non-DIR or XYZ Agency vs ABC Agency. It almost always seems to be tech divers looking down on recreational divers. Or even tech divers looking down on other tech divers because they have a lower level cert or even just a lesser number of dives. I suppose it probably happens from "Rescue" divers looking down on "mere" AOW divers - but I haven't personally seen it yet. Other than tech divers, I've only really seen it from recreational divers who are arrogant about their SAC, and I haven't seen that very often.

Don't judge all tech divers. Some of the nicest and most humble divers I know are tech divers. They are also some of the best divers. One is quite famous and you'd personally no his name. If you met him for a beer and told him you dived he would just talk normally and wouldn't dream of bragging about what he's done.

However, he'd also dive with people out of trim and not lose his mind by it. He'd dive with people and just enjoy himself. And he doesn't get worked up about people doing what they want and enjoying themselves. If they want to dive a bit deeper on air or without a redundant system he leaves them to it as it's not his business.

For the record. I'm rubbish on a bike - I bought a ZX-6R in luminous green and ride it like a little girl. It's got rather obvious chicken strips. But I enjoy it. So it's all good.
 
Don't judge all tech divers. Some of the nicest and most humble divers I know are tech divers. They are also some of the best divers. One is quite famous and you'd personally no his name. If you met him for a beer and told him you dived he would just talk normally and wouldn't dream of bragging about what he's done.

However, he'd also dive with people out of trim and not lose his mind by it. He'd dive with people and just enjoy himself. And he doesn't get worked up about people doing what they want and enjoying themselves. If they want to dive a bit deeper on air or without a redundant system he leaves them to it as it's not his business.

For the record. I'm rubbish on a bike - I bought a ZX-6R in luminous green and ride it like a little girl. It's got rather obvious chicken strips. But I enjoy it. So it's all good.
Almost every "famous" tech diver I know is this way. They have nothing left to prove. One of the most humble and gracious men I know is Richie Kohler. John Chatterton is another such man. I know Richie far better than I do John, as he has been a guest in my house and on my boat many times. Always a kind word, always a pleasant story. Getting him out of the dive business was the best thing that ever could have happened to him.
 
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