Safety Risk for Children on dive boats

[gcarter]

I think kids are great.

Kids, dive boats, and waters are all highly variable so the real answer is based on discerning judgment rather than blanket rules. Some kids grow up around water and boats. Some kids are lower maintenance than some adults.



Just remember, Wookie, with the safety practices you follow, you are likely to live long enough to reach your second childhood.

Whose judgement is to rule the day? The discerning judgement based on a knowledge of the kids rests with the parents. They are hardly unbiased or uninvested in the outcome of the decision. What reason do I have, if I were the operator, to trust their judgement? What reason do I have, as another customer, to trust their judgement?

Kids do not belong on dive boats. If they are not diving, leave them ashore.

 

[T.C.]

Horses, dad had some cattle.
Horse shows, team penning.

I never slopped hogs or castrated a bull but I heard about it.
My kids both rode pretty young in California but I don't know what farm animals he was referring to.
We had some wild boars in our yard in Catalina once.

A riding horse isn't a farm animal, it's a large pet. Hobby ranching isn't the same either.

I'm not convinced you understand the risks of children alongside farm animals- or of bringing children along who are not there to participate in the same activities.

"the USCG actually held them out there off Molakai for two full days without cell service and it was a quite an ordeal."

Are you stating that the United States Coast Guard detained the boat on the water off the shores of Molakai for 48 hours?

 

[Mrs. B]

The way I recall the accident, they were off Lana'i and I heard about it on the marine radio on my own boat where I was on it off Hawaii Kai. The kids did not have cell service and we parents were told by the school that the USCG investigation was taking a very long time, and they did not release the boat for a very long time. Now, it is quite likely that the school was trying to notify the next of kin and "counsel" the kids for some portion of that time or had to do with locating the body. If you want to discuss the USCG and lost divers in Hawaii, that is another topic.

The point was they experienced the death of a beloved teacher and from my perspective, all adapted and came through the grief process. This was in response to someone commenting about children possibly seeing an accident or death. I weighed in to make several points about how resilient children are and how I am not aware of any evidence that they die or suffer accidents more than adults on dive charters.

Do you all have any figures to the contrary? In my nine years there, I only recall a whale watching accident where a child was killed.

 

[T.C.]

The way I recall the accident, they were off Lana'i and I heard about it on the marine radio on my own boat where I was on it off Hawaii Kai. The kids did not have cell service and we parents were told by the school that the USCG investigation was taking a very long time, and they did not release the boat for a very long time. Now, it is quite likely that the school was trying to notify the next of kin and "counsel" the kids for some portion of that time or had to do with locating the body. If you want to discuss the USCG and lost divers in Hawaii, that is another topic.

The point was they experienced the death of a beloved teacher and from my perspective, all adapted and came through the grief process. This was in response to someone commenting about children possibly seeing an accident or death. I weighed in to make several points about how resilient children are and how I am not aware of any evidence that they die or suffer accidents more than adults on dive charters.

Do you all have any figures to the contrary? In my nine years there, I only recall a whale watching accident where a child was killed.

But you stated that the USCG held them there. That seems...improbable- and is in contradiction to the facts.

You said they were held off Molakia. That is well to the north of Lanai, where the accident occurred.
The accident occurred on the south side of Lanai as well.
Investigations would be conducted on land- as it's unlikely that the procedures for an investigation would be carried out on a boat while at sea, when harbor is close by.
You heard it on a radio on a boat off Hawaii Kai? At 50 miles or so away, that's an impressive radio.
The body was recovered within minutes.
The Rapture, which the group was on, then took him to the hospital.
Schools do not inform next of kin.
The odds that there was enough counselors in the remaining 12 Adults for 98 students is quite small. Counseling would be better done on land, not the scene of the accident.

You offer one example, but the fact that counseling was seen as needed in your view contradicts that. With 98 students, likely they were not directly exposed to the accident. Furthermore, your inaccuracies in recalling this do pertain to the subject, and call into question your solitary example.

The issue is not whether the child will be killed. Harm can be done without it being deadly; and still present a great risk.

So why, in your view, does a 5-10 year old who is not participating in the activities need to be present on the boat?

 

[KathyV]

I probably wouldn't be thrilled to see kids on a dive boat with me, but I guess that it might be okay, apparently it works well for some families!

 

[gcarter]

I probably wouldn't be thrilled to see kids on a dive boat with me, but I guess that it might be okay, apparently it works well for some families!

View attachment 445094

That kid is diving, which makes a big difference as to whether I want him on a dive boat.

 

[Mrs. B]

Typically, in my experience, the kids go a couple times, observe, get interested (or not) and then they might snorkel during the parents surface interval and the next thing you know they are doing a class.
Many of the children that live in Hawaii can swim circles around mainland divers on vacation so you will probably encounter some kids on the dive boats.

 

[TMHeimer]

Whose judgement is to rule the day? The discerning judgement based on a knowledge of the kids rests with the parents. They are hardly unbiased or uninvested in the outcome of the decision. What reason do I have, if I were the operator, to trust their judgement? What reason do I have, as another customer, to trust their judgement?

Kids do not belong on dive boats. If they are not diving, leave them ashore.

In general I agree. Though I have posted before on my idea that 10-12-even 14 is too young for kids to be diving--which is a very minority opinion. When we are in the casinos in Miss. I occasionally see young kids there, of course with parents--yes there is in one casino an arcade for them. But it is puzzling why parents would even take, like, 8 year olds into a casino, as opposed to getting a sitter and then doing their gambling.
If a kid is certified and will be diving that may be OK, but it seems we're talking about their safety while one the boat, not under it.

 

[outofofficebrb]

Children are a women’s issue in that we give birth to them....but don’t forget, it’s also a men’s issue. While they don’t go through the labor aspect, they are still biologically involved and still participate and have say in their care, too. I’m a woman and I think calling it’s a women’s issue and suggesting only that is really ridiculous. I apologize if that was not your intention but it comes across that way.

No one is saying to not expose a child to diving. I agree with you that it’s important to foster an appreciation of nature, the ocean, and the next generation of divers. There’s a time and place for it. The OP is captain (and instructor as secondary) of a vessel tied to a business that caters to divers. The captain is responsible for the well-being and safety of all on board. Whether he or she allows children on board or not is not a direct reflection about how they feel about children - it’s a liability issue because at the end of the day, this is his work and workplace on the line. This is what is going to pay his bills and feed his family. You speak of other countries not speaking of children this way. What other country do you know of that is as litigious as the United States if something were to occur?

A decision will be made because it’s a one that’s best for the business. Minimizing risks and liability is what’s good for a business. There are operators that do allow children on board. Good for them. But please, try to understand why an operator may choose not to. It doesn’t mean a condemnation of children. While I can’t speak for every operation out there, some conditions (on water), vessels (layout, size, function), type of diving, etc. are just not ideal. Not every dive boat will be like the ones in Hawaii and not all kids will be as comfortable in the water because they haven’t grown up at the beach and in or near water all the time. Every boat, family, kid, etc is different and an operator might just think it’s easiest and safest to call a blanket yes or no.

The OP asked what our assessment was of safety with kids on a dive boat. Without a doubt, there is a safety risk no matter how “on it” a parent is or comfortable kids and parents alike are on a boat or water. Nothing is 100%.

 

[Mrs. B]

But you stated that the USCG held them there. That seems...improbable- and is in contradiction to the facts.

You said they were held off Molakia. That is well to the north of Lanai, where the accident occurred.
The accident occurred on the south side of Lanai as well.
Investigations would be conducted on land- as it's unlikely that the procedures for an investigation would be carried out on a boat while at sea, when harbor is close by.
You heard it on a radio on a boat off Hawaii Kai? At 50 miles or so away, that's an impressive radio.
The body was recovered within minutes.
The Rapture, which the group was on, then took him to the hospital.
Schools do not inform next of kin.
The odds that there was enough counselors in the remaining 12 Adults for 98 students is quite small. Counseling would be better done on land, not the scene of the accident.

You offer one example, but the fact that counseling was seen as needed in your view contradicts that. With 98 students, likely they were not directly exposed to the accident. Furthermore, your inaccuracies in recalling this do pertain to the subject, and call into question your solitary example.

The issue is not whether the child will be killed. Harm can be done without it being deadly; and still present a great risk.

So why, in your view, does a 5-10 year old who is not participating in the activities need to be present on the boat?

I dont what your point is but I heard the incident being discussed on my radio and my child was on the boat. You seem to know more about it than I do, so carry on. Hopefully you realize as well as I do that I could be hearing radio chatter midway relaying the incident.

The operator can make any call they like about kids, certainly. Divers that want to expose their children can always find a boat. The scuba culture has really changed, has it gotten safer?