Yes/No requirement for Med form

[rmssetc]

I'm not PADI, but I would be disinclined to accept her as a student. I can't protect my student if I don't know what's happening with them. What if the doctor gave her a pass on type I diabetes? Most doctors have no clue why people on insulin shouldn't dive. Trust goes both ways. You don't have to trust me, but that means I can't trust you. Have lots of fun learning Scuba: just not from me. Again, this is not a PADI answer.

If trust goes both ways, would you supply the student with your medical form upon request, and provide them with answers if they want details on boxes that you've checked "Yes"?

Remember, while you certainly have more diving experience than the student, they're still your spare air supply, help to get you to the surface, into a boat, etc. in case you have a medical issue. This is particularly true in cases where you are instructing someone who's already certified.

Whether it was from an instructor or an insta-buddy, if I was questioned on my medical fitness -- casting doubt on my honesty in getting a medical consult and completing the form accurately -- I think I'd appreciate the other person's diligence and concern for safety (mine & theirs)...and I don't think I'd want to dive with them.

Disclaimer -- I was happy to be your student, and felt it was valuable, and would be glad to do it again. I didn't question your health, but I'm certain that an honest completion of the form would have at least one "Yes" box...as does mine.

 

[The Chairman]

If trust goes both ways, would you supply the student with your medical form upon request, and provide them with answers if they want details on boxes that you've checked "Yes"?

I always inform my buddies of my health, both physical and mental. You're getting the picture, though. It's not a matter of seniority, but of being prepared. You can't prepare in a vacuum. I would be "OK" if they asked me to fill out a questionnaire for them or even a waiver.

Ultimately, for me, being a scuba diver is about personal responsibility.

It's a shared responsibility. If you commit to being my buddy, then I need to know what may limit your ability to save my butt. The converse is also true.

While I respect any instructor's right to refuse to train a given student, it's discouraging to see people at such a high level on SB outright dismiss the idea of training someone with Type 1 Diabetes (T1D).

Again, the point is being missed. Diving and being a buddy or instructor is all about knowing your limits. When I first became an instructor, having diabetes was an absolute washout for diving. Things look like they are changing, but I don't know what to do if they run into a problem. If I had a student who needed me to research this, then I probably would and then be able to handle it. Right now, it would be a no-go. They are out of my limits.

But again, the big point would be if they didn't tell me at all. Wow. Then I would really be unprepared to help them.

I dive a rebreather. I know that even when I have an OC buddy, I really don't have a buddy at all. I know how to help them, but they have no clue how to help me. They still blithely splash with me, in complete ignorance how to assist me should I need it. Kind of funny. I do have one buddy who won't dive with me on my rebreather. SHE gets it. It's not within her limits and she's not going there. FWIW, I know I'm diving "solo" when I'm with an OC buddy.

 

[Larryjd1]

Ultimately, for me, being a scuba diver is about personal responsibility.

I just had to complete a medical clearance for the Deep Diver and Advanced Enriched Air courses I am taking now as I have some Yes's in my boxes.

Frankly, I'm not sure that even if my doctor understands the effects of diving in general, that he'll understand the effects of deep diving and using higher oxygen for deco.

So just like you should question and be knowledge about any other area or medical treatment you are receiving, I'll take advanatge of things like DAN's resources not just to answer for myself but so I can provide my doctor with the indicators or recommendations that are related to any procedures I have had or medicines I may be taking, to help him advise me as best as possible for the type of diving I'm planning on doing.

 

[tridacna]

I just had to complete a medical clearance for the Deep Diver and Advanced Enriched Air courses I am taking now as I have some Yes's in my boxes.

Frankly, I'm not sure that even if my doctor understands the effects of diving in general, that he'll understand the effects of deep diving and using higher oxygen for deco.

So just like you should question and be knowledge about any other area or medical treatment you are receiving, I'll take advanatge of things like DAN's resources not just to answer for myself but so I can provide my doctor with the indicators or recommendations that are related to any procedures I have had or medicines I may be taking, to help him advise me as best as possible for the type of diving I'm planning on doing.

Or you could just visit a doctor versed in dive medicine...(DAN can help you there too). IMO the best way.

 

[KeithG]

Or you could just visit a doctor versed in dive medicine...(DAN can help you there too). IMO the best way.

Good idea, but there are "chamber doctors" recommended by DAN that know nothing about diving. So do some diligence and make sure that your DAN doctor actually understands diving...

 

[MaxE]

Your approach is interesting to me, only because I followed it at one time also. It was my counsel and insurance company who advised me to allow the doctor to make the call instead of me.

Did their reasoning for you to allow the trained medical professionals to make the call have anything to to with opening yourself to a potentional legal liability for discrimination?

 

[BRT]

Insulin dependent diabetics can't effectively produce/regulate insulin production to increase/decrease their glucose levels. This can lead to convulsions underwater. While problematic on the hard, these can be deadly in or under water.


I'm not playing "doctor" here, but I am acting as a dive professional. Should a doctor clear an insulin dependent diabetic to dive, I want to know WHY. I also want to know that they are insulin independent. Should the doctor be wrong and the student start the shakes underwater, I need to know what to look for as well as what to do. Getting them to the surface is a no-brainer, but what then? Why would I allow ignorance to put me or my student into that situation? Moreover, if I'm not aware of a particular condition, I won't know what to look for. People go into denial all the time when things go wrong underwater. If you don't know, then you won't be looking for those sometimes subtle clues.

Just because a doctor says a condition is diveable doesn't mean I HAVE to teach them, especially if they are unwilling to let me know what it is. I teach adaptive Scuba so I have to deal with doctors and divers who have no clue all the time. There are many conditions I can dive with... most days... with benign conditions. But not knowing about that condition puts me at a disadvantage and my student's health at risk. Maybe a certain condition requires an extra buddy. Maybe it requires a few extra buddies. If a diver is unwilling to let me know what the condition is, then I am unwilling to teach them. I can teach/dive with a legally blind diver with an extra set of eyes and fins. Autisitic? I need two and so on. I can't make those decisions that impact safety if I'm ignorant of a diver's need for adaptation.

Bottom line. If something happens on the dive, you can be sure that you will be held liable by the survivors for your willful ignorance of their loved one's condition. "I don't play doctor" isn't the best defense. Trust is a two way street. If they can't trust me with sensitive information, then I can't trust them to let me know if or when it's causing them a problem.

What you say is all true, but if you decide to make those decisions for people their best option is just to answer no.

 

[Wookie]

Did their reasoning for you to allow the trained medical professionals to make the call have anything to to with opening yourself to a potentional legal liability for discrimination?

Dive boats (small passenger vessels) are not subject to the rules of the ADA by the nature of their design. We are discrimination proof for most medical situations. That does not, ofcourse, allow them to discriminate for other reasons (race, origin, etc). The coast guard feels that passenger safety trumps medical “equality”. So, no.

 

[TrimixToo]

The student seems to have three real options:
A) Answer the form completely and honestly. If there are any YES answers, get a doctor's signature.
B) Don't answer the form honestly....put all NO answers no matter what.
C) Don't answer the form at all. Get a doctor's signature.

If I get a version (B) form from a middle-aged person, I'm suspicious. There are 1-4 questions that a sedentary middle-aged person is likely to need to put a YES on. So i get the form to the student well in advance so there is no issue of it being the last-minute and no time to get a doctor's signature.

I'd prefer if ALL students had to get a doctor's signature, period. Like in Australia.

Which questions would you wonder about?

I'm middle-aged. All my answers are legitimately NO, *and* I get my doctor to sign an RSTC medical form every year whether I plan to take any classes or not. She and I have had frank discussions about the sort of diving I do (deep mixed-gas diving with deco) and my physical condition. If she ever decides she should not sign the form, I'll go see a diving physician, and if that doctor agrees with her, I'm done. Why? I know of two incidents, one near miss, one fatal, where your (B) was a likely factor.

 

[The Chairman]

I know of two incidents, one near miss, one fatal, where your (B) was a likely factor.

I wonder if they're the same two. The survivor's quality of life changed forever. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, especially myself.