BSAC avoids annual VIP

[Diving Dubai]

People seem to think that steel cylinders are coated or galvanized on the inside. With the exception of some old steel 72's I don't believe this is true.

I don't know either. It was an assumption on my part - I could be easy wrong. I'd certainly be interested to know

 

[W W Meixner]

By your comment (regarding your garage) I assume you are talking about your tanks, and not the run of the mill tanks the public takes to a shop for a vis. I have not yet found any shop that takes more than 5 minutes or so to do a vis inspection. seldom find a shop that does not call a valve removal look inside dump the dust out and replace a valve a vis. occasonally i find shops that will remove old stickers. occasionally i find a shop that removes a tank boot to check for pitting or rusting. most shops the attitude is 6061's have no problems. less than half the time the valve o-ring is replaced. I took my tanks in years ago and painted a print bridge from the valve of the tank. the paint/ nail polish was not broke and a new sticker was on the tank. Other divers have experienced the same. Lax vis procedures are not uncommon. what is uncommon is that you get your tank back and you get a report (verbal or other) of what was found. I speek a lot to divers that travel. on cruise ships etc.. so i have some what of a mental collection of how things get done across the country. Generally what I hear is that again valves are removed to see if you had any water or oil in the tank from bad fills. If that is good it gets a sticker. I have seen tanks with prop cuts in them and they have a sticker. It is not hard to surmise that the degree of thoroughness is lacking. Also that if using PSI as the standard for measuring a degree of competantcy then is is lacking very much across the board. Just to cover teh base. I seldom get to talk to cave divers to see how tings are done in their area. Most of them inspect their own and also do their own cleaning. Many do not have vis stickers on their tanks at all. But over all when you look at the cave community it is a rather small % of the divers out there. When you talk about your tanks and where you find your problems, I have to say my tanks are the same way. no one uses them but my wife and me. the only chips or gouges are in the paint from hydro stamps. I would estimate that of the tanks i see,,,, at the half a dozen sites i can locally can go to,,,,, over half have several years of stickers on them. I think this is the sae type of thing where i take in my lp tanks for a fill adn come home with 3200 in them because they never read the tank to see full was 2640 with the +.... This i find to be area dependant some what, ask the tank monkey about the + on a tank. many have no clue they just fill to 3200 so they cool to 3000 and the job is done.

Because of those observations and comments form so many others as well as mine from allover the country I take the position that thorough vis's are not done. What causes that attitude in shops I dont know. Perhas this is just a small mom and pop shop thing. It certainly is not prevalant is any shop that deals with any one tech. I can only guess that the shop policy (right or wrong) is to not deal with tanks over 20 yo. As AL's go there is nothing but 6061's that are dhop elegible to be filled and they have no machine to look for cracks because of that of that same policy. I have had tank monkeys look for tank date (oroiginal hydro) and ignore everything else like working pressure.

KWS...

Great note...

First apologizing that this reply is slightly off topic...

I took the TDI Visual Inspectors Course...

The course was well taught...I spent the money...bought all the tools...equipment...and supplies...and follow the training course service guidelines to the letter...I service all incoming tanks like they were my own...takes me a lot longer than five minutes...drying after O2 cleaning is an hour on its own...everything that's O2 cleaned has the valve dis-assembled O2 cleaned and kitted...I remove all boots...straight edge the tank walls...and I remove all stickers including NITROX bands...if your a ''Skull and Cross-Bones'' fan...those stickers are coming off too...I even remove all sticker goo...soap/warm water wash the exterior of every tank...and wash every boot...I've had a few guys who didn't recognize their own tanks after they were cleaned up...

Annual Visual with O2 clean and valve service is $50...plus fill...standard tanks are $30...with fill...and I'm comfortably busy...

I do not perform eddy-current inspections...I do something better...I refuse to service any tank requiring one...

I find it hard to believe that I'm the only inspector doing things right...and I suggest to anyone who has had tank service or any other scuba gear service that is far less than it should be...and from what I'm reading here...if it is accurate and honest...there are some bad operators in the industry...to report these service centers to the appropriate agency(s) with facts and photos and to find someone else...

There's a lot of good operators in this industry...a lot of them hanging on by a thread...we should be seeing the bad operators disappearing not the good ones...

Dive Safe...support those who deserve to be supported...its's your gear...if you accept less...you'll get less...

Warren...

 

[Sam Miller III]

@W W Meixner --Now one of Gods frozen people in Canada posted:

I find it hard to believe that I'm the only inspector doing things right...and I suggest to anyone who has had tank service or any other scuba gear service that is far less than it should be...and from what I'm reading here...if it is accurate and honest...there are some bad operators in the industry...to report these service centers to the appropriate agency(s) with facts and photos and to find someone else...

There's a lot of good operators in this industry...a lot of them hanging on by a thread...we should be seeing the bad operators disappearing not the good ones...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
By gum good for you ! Do it correctly of don't do it !

Perhaps you as an expert who attended a PSI class inform the uninformed as to when , who and by whom the concept pf VIP began ?

SDM

 

[boulderjohn]

I have not yet found any shop that takes more than 5 minutes or so to do a vis inspection. seldom find a shop that does not call a valve removal look inside dump the dust out and replace a valve a vis. occasonally i find shops that will remove old stickers. occasionally i find a shop that removes a tank boot to check for pitting or rusting. most shops the attitude is 6061's have no problems.

So under what circumstances are you observing all these shops doing their visual inspections? You make it seem as if you have watched while dozens of shops do that work. I must have had a really deprived scuba life, because I have only observed visual inspections in two shops, and in each case I was the one doing it. Please explain how it is that you get to see all of this.

So let's say that you are right and have indeed watched dozens of different shops doing their work. What percentage of all shops would you estimate that would be?

 

[W W Meixner]

@W W Meixner --Now one of Gods frozen people in Canada posted:

I find it hard to believe that I'm the only inspector doing things right...and I suggest to anyone who has had tank service or any other scuba gear service that is far less than it should be...and from what I'm reading here...if it is accurate and honest...there are some bad operators in the industry...to report these service centers to the appropriate agency(s) with facts and photos and to find someone else...

There's a lot of good operators in this industry...a lot of them hanging on by a thread...we should be seeing the bad operators disappearing not the good ones...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
By gum good for you ! Do it correctly of don't do it !

Perhaps you as an expert who attended a PSI class inform the uninformed as to when , who and by whom the concept pf VIP began ?

SDM

Hey Sam...

William L. (Bill) High...President of PSI...Professional Scuba Inspectors had his ''ZERO EXPLOSIONS'' philosophy...I have one of his original course manuals...it's very comprehensive...18 serious incidents...some involving fatalities were cited which occurred between 1990 and 2000...some of your own family members may have been involved with these early standards as well...

The concept was developed that it seemed like a good idea to periodically look at all these HP bombs that divers had strapped to their backs...

Plus 9 degrees C in Central Ontario today...a veritable heat wave...good day for a December dive...I I looked at my rebreather...and I'm sure I could hear it whispering back to me...saying...not only no...but...hell no!...

Best...

Warren

 

[JackD342]

(BTW there are actually errors in the PSI materials on maximum pit depth. Their numbers are all based on AL3000 cylinders and do not account for AL2015 cylinders which have a much thinner wall thickness. While Al14s havent been made in a few years, even the teachers make mistakes.)

If you think there is an actual error or omission, contact Mark and let him know. I can't say which way the conversation will go, but I bet one or the other of you will learn something new!

I just looked over my materials, and I would have had to call Mark for clarification. But based on what I found, I think the 3rd paragraph on page 28 of the 5th edition may address your concerns. He certainly does know about that thinner wall, as it is listed in the table on page 30.

 

[Pavao]

Yeah, only way to get water inside a tank is through the compressor....

You can see all the piting even from the picture, and yes, that little mound there is salt

Different tank from same person, can’t remember if there was piting yet on this one, these pics are from 2012, but you can see the same amount of salt here.

This is from a few months ago, and that’s just what I was able to colllect for the picture, total amount was nearly twice that.

These were all taken today, 3 different tanks from the same person, batch of 6 tanks.
These tanks were inspected by us 13 months ago, and were spotless then, even now they look brand new (aside from the pitted spots of course), they haven’t even had their first hydro yet.

This is what 1 year will do to a tank, imagine longer, and that’s considering the problems started to occur imisiately after service, but we don’t know that, the actual time to get that damage could be much shorter.

So, where’s this bs of “no evidence of increased safety” by inspecting every year come from, I still haven’t got an answer about how they arrived at that conclusion.

Now, by what some of you are listing here as costs for these services is just outrageous, I think that’s the issue needs to be adressed, not lowering the safety standards.

And yeah, as some have pointed out, so much misinformation here

 

[W W Meixner]

Yeah, only way to get water inside a tank is through the compressor....

View attachment 492005
You can see all the piting even from the picture, and yes, that little mound there is salt
View attachment 492006
Different tank from same person, can’t remember if there was piting yet on this one, these pics are from 2012, but you can see the same amount of salt here.

View attachment 492012
This is from a few months ago, and that’s just what I was able to colllect for the picture, total amount was nearly twice that.

View attachment 492011 View attachment 492010 View attachment 492009
These were all taken today, 3 different tanks from the same person, batch of 6 tanks.
These tanks were inspected by us 13 months ago, and were spotless then, even now they look brand new (aside from the pitted spots of course), they haven’t even had their first hydro yet.

This is what 1 year will do to a tank, imagine longer, and that’s considering the problems started to occur imisiately after service, but we don’t know that, the actual time to get that damage could be much shorter.

So, where’s this bs of “no evidence of increased safety” by inspecting every year come from, I still haven’t got an answer about how they arrived at that conclusion.

Now, by what some of you are listing here as costs for these services is just outrageous, I think that’s the issue needs to be adressed, not lowering the safety standards.

And yeah, as some have pointed out, so much misinformation here

Pavao...

I've serviced hundreds of tanks...albeit in Canada...fresh water exposure...and have never seen corrosion/salt intrusion like this...

These tanks look as though they've been strapped to cradles on ocean going dive boats and left there...indefinitely...with their valves open...

This is serious neglect...plain and simple...I can only imagine the state of the rest of this persons gear...

You didn't have to take the valve off to fail these cylinders...

As well as failing the cylinder you should be drilling a half inch diameter hole through the serial number...

In closing...don't get your frillies in a flutter...this reduced inspection protocol is not going to happen in North America...

Just keep doing things as you were trained...

Best...

Warren...

 

[Sam Miller III]

Hey Sam...

William L. (Bill) High...President of PSI...Professional Scuba Inspectors had his ''ZERO EXPLOSIONS'' philosophy...I have one of his original course manuals...it's very comprehensive...18 serious incidents...some involving fatalities were cited which occurred between 1990 and 2000...some of your own family members may have been involved with these early standards as well...

The concept was developed that it seemed like a good idea to periodically look at all these HP bombs that divers had strapped to their backs...

Plus 9 degrees C in Central Ontario today...a veritable heat wave...good day for a December dive...I I looked at my rebreather...and I'm sure I could hear it whispering back to me...saying...not only no...but...hell no!...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Warren
If you believe Bill was the originator of the VIP process your probably believe in Santa Claus

Bill created his program 20 years after the original VIP was created

When time permits I will post the history

Sunny about 70 actually 67 -- just waked Lucky my dog- who has a sweater on !
all is well

Sam

 

[boulderjohn]

If you believe Bill was the originator of the VIP process your probably believe in Santa Claus

Bill created his program 20 years after the original VIP was created

Not knowing the actual history, but knowing something about Bill High, I checked the PSI-PCI website, where they have his biography as it relates to scuba tank inspection. It is masterfully worded. They must have worked on it very, very carefully. It very strongly implies that Bill invented scuba tank inspection without actually saying that.