Herd Immunity in Indonesia

[DownUnderwater Dan]

This deviation from the original topic is an example of herd mentality.

In any case, I fail to understand the rationale for mandatory isolation of the extremely vulnerable. They are not significantly more likely to contract the virus, and they are not more likely to spread the disease. They differ from the general population only in their high probability of dying from it. If this is what they choose to do, out of stupidity or lack of information, why should that be anyone else's concern? Society certainly has an obligation to make Isolation easily accomplished for these people (I'm one of them) but there is no particular danger to society from letting them wander around as they choose except for the burden and expense of medical care for patients whose prognosis is close to hopeless. There is certainly no physical danger from these vulnerables. If we are going to lock people up in detention camps to limit the spread of Covid it should be people in their late teens and twenties, an idea I sometimes find appealing.

I'm not sure where this idea of locking up "vulnerable" people in detention is coming from.
An example of herd mentality is group ostracising those who may have very valid points but doesn't conform to the current sentiment of others.

An uninfected woman in Australia was sentenced to 6 months jail for crossing a state border, there was no big uproar at the severity of her sentence because of the pack mentality towards covid control. Whereas someone else swindled millions off elderly widows and not serve a day in jail, go figure

Staying on Indonesia, the "vulnerable" have become even more "vulnerable" because of the shutdown of the greater economy

There's no greater time than now for innovation and ideas especially from the young generation in their 20's to make the quality of life return to some kind of normality

I recently became acquainted with an Indonesian student in her 20's here in oz, studying to become a doctor. There's no way I would tell her some of the arrogant comments people have made about Indonesian doctors just for the sake of receiving a few likes on a scuba forum. I know if she seen it, she would be deeply offended

 

[chillyinCanada]

I'm not sure where this idea of locking up "vulnerable" people in detention is coming from.
An example of herd mentality is group ostracising those who may have very valid points but doesn't conform to the current sentiment of others.

An uninfected woman in Australia was sentenced to 6 months jail for crossing a state border, there was no big uproar at the severity of her sentence because of the pack mentality towards covid control. Whereas someone else swindled millions off elderly widows and not serve a day in jail, go figure

Staying on Indonesia, the "vulnerable" have become even more "vulnerable" because of the shutdown of the greater economy

There's no greater time than now for innovation and ideas especially from the young generation in their 20's to make the quality of life return to some kind of normality

I recently became acquainted with an Indonesian student in her 20's here in oz, studying to become a doctor. There's no way I would tell her some of the arrogant comments people have made about Indonesian doctors just for the sake of receiving a few likes on a scuba forum. I know if she seen it, she would be deeply offended

It's nice of you to be offended for her.

If you really want to help her, let's get everyone of every age and status into masks and following other protocols.

The sooner we manage that, the sooner the virus will be under control and we can all carry on with our lives which most certainly will include returning to Indonesia. Whereupon we can undertake to restart their tourism economy.

 

[DownUnderwater Dan]

It's nice of you to be offended for her.

If you really want to help her, let's get everyone of every age and status into masks and following other protocols.

The sooner we manage that, the sooner the virus will be under control and we can all carry on with our lives which most certainly will include returning to Indonesia. Whereupon we can undertake to restart their tourism economy.

It's nice of you to be offended for her.

Why is that nice?

If you really want to help her

She doesn't need my help. On the contrary, I'll probably need her help one day if I'm sick or injured in Indonesia. Which I have been before, both sick & injured and gone to hospitals in Jakarta & Bali for treatment

 

[ToneNQ]

..........................An uninfected woman in Australia was sentenced to 6 months jail for crossing a state border, there was no big uproar at the severity of her sentence because of the pack mentality towards covid control. Whereas someone else swindled millions off elderly widows and not serve a day in jail, go figure.............................

She was not jailed for crossing the WA border, she had a permit to cross the border. She was jailed because of the way she did it. She did not take the flight that she booked herself on, she hid in a truck. When she did not meet the quarantine taxi or police, can't recall, they found here hiding in her boyfriend's house. Its hard to garner public sympathy when you act like a hedonist.The sentence was repealed a week ago and reduced to 50hrs community service, seems she served about three weeks in jail.

There are pages of examples of people putting the most vulnerable at risk. Some of these are dripping with entitlement, others are malicious, and heaps are just ignorant to be point of being stupid

Indonesia's public health system is likely overwhelmed to the point they have no clear picture of the SARS-COV-2 virus and the rate of COVID-19 illness. I have first hand reports of people in other country's with much better health infrastructure taking a month to recover. There's reports in Australia of people in their 20s taking 12 weeks to get full respiratory function back. The long term heath effects of this illness indicate we shouldn't expose people to this recklessly.

Oh for heaven’s sakes. This coming from someone in a country that allows its cricketers to polish a cricket ball with sandpaper. Relax.

Pretty sure Australia's response to that incident was the strongest ever seen, by quite a large margin. I always took this to indicate the country took a rather dim view of it. Are you actually even aware of the fallout? If you could list what response would clearly not condone the behaviour I'd be interested to read it.

 

[chillyinCanada]

She was not jailed for crossing the WA border, she had a permit to cross the border. She was jailed because of the way she did it. She did not take the flight that she booked herself on, she hid in a truck. When she did not meet the quarantine taxi or police, can't recall, they found here hiding in her boyfriend's house. Its hard to garner public sympathy when you act like a hedonist.The sentence was repealed a week ago and reduced to 50hrs community service, seems she served about three weeks in jail.

There are pages of examples of people putting the most vulnerable at risk. Some of these are dripping with entitlement, others are malicious, and heaps are just ignorant to be point of being stupid

Indonesia's public health system is likely overwhelmed to the point they have no clear picture of the SARS-COV-2 virus and the rate of COVID-19 illness. I have first hand reports of people in other country's with much better health infrastructure taking a month to recover. There's reports in Australia of people in their 20s taking 12 weeks to get full respiratory function back. The long term heath effects of this illness indicate we shouldn't expose people to this recklessly.


Pretty sure Australia's response to that incident was the strongest ever seen, by quite a large margin. I always took this to indicate the country took a rather dim view of it. Are you actually even aware of the fallout? If you could list what response would clearly not condone the behaviour I'd be interested to read it.

Brilliant post, thank you.

 

[DownUnderwater Dan]

She was not jailed for crossing the WA border, she had a permit to cross the border. She was jailed because of the way she did it. She did not take the flight that she booked herself on, she hid in a truck. When she did not meet the quarantine taxi or police, can't recall, they found here hiding in her boyfriend's house. Its hard to garner public sympathy when you act like a hedonist.The sentence was repealed a week ago and reduced to 50hrs community service, seems she served about three weeks in jail.

There are pages of examples of people putting the most vulnerable at risk. Some of these are dripping with entitlement, others are malicious, and heaps are just ignorant to be point of being stupid

Indonesia's public health system is likely overwhelmed to the point they have no clear picture of the SARS-COV-2 virus and the rate of COVID-19 illness. I have first hand reports of people in other country's with much better health infrastructure taking a month to recover. There's reports in Australia of people in their 20s taking 12 weeks to get full respiratory function back. The long term heath effects of this illness indicate we shouldn't expose people to this recklessly.


Pretty sure Australia's response to that incident was the strongest ever seen, by quite a large margin. I always took this to indicate the country took a rather dim view of it. Are you actually even aware of the fallout? If you could list what response would clearly not condone the behaviour I'd be interested to read it.

She was not infected with covid-19, she self quarantined at her boyfriend's home. She didn't knowingly or recklessly infect others. A custodial sentence of 6 months was extremely excessive as the appealing magistrate remarked there were other punishments to consider other than jail. Anyways, the cost of the courts, cost of locking her in jail, cost of police, costs of appeals process would be in the $100's thousands, money that could of been used to buy life saving machines or used to better protect the "vulnerable" people in society, instead of making a scapegoat out of a young woman

By the way, do you agree with the Prime Minister of Australia & the federal government's medical advice on covid? The chief medical officer of Australia said months ago he never recommended Australia's internal borders to be shut. Also the Prime Minister of Australia has been at war with the state governments to reopen the state borders for the last month.
If the Prime Minister wants the borders open, then why is this woman receiving a 6 month jail term?

There's reports in Australia of people in their 20s taking 12 weeks to get full respiratory function back.

Do you know what percentage that is?

 

[ToneNQ]

She was not infected with covid-19, she self quarantined at her boyfriend's home. She didn't knowingly or recklessly infect others. A custodial sentence of 6 months was extremely excessive as the appealing magistrate remarked there were other punishments to consider other than jail. ........snip.....
Do you know what percentage that is?

She was not allowed to self quarantine and she knew that, explicitly. She knew returning to WA required hotel quarantine and she bypassed that by sneaking back. Self-quarantine, bollocks, she was hiding because she knew the conditions of her permit. She appealed her sentence, she won, the court process worked. Magistrates and Federal circuit judges err often enough for the appellate courts to exist, this is a non-issue for me.

Australia is a federation, the PM has no authority over state borders, its only Albo that is too vacuous to realise it. I dont agree with the closures but neither my opinion nor ScoMo's matter. Border controls work without closure, that is how the three girls from Logan were caught visiting Melbourne, their false declarations and subsequent rounding up and testing averted a serious risk. One of the people they infected in the restaurant by dining out when infectious and symptomatic was an aged care worker. The controls is what caught them in their malicious avoidance.

The health departments are primarily managing the responses, so its massively risk averse, but at least they are qualified and intelligent. I'd be more concerned if the politicians were managing things, 97% lawyers and union hacks with a random scattering of morons, 3% miscellaneous.

I wasn't quoting percentages or trends. It's the anedoctal recovery time of an individual case. Can't recall where but Victoria somewhere. This is not a common cold. The way they treat patients, the drugs used and the timing, when they ventilate and the precise timing of when the flip patients on ventilators to prone, these are factors in the mortality rates.

The epidemiologistics will be studying this for a decade. Sweden might turn out to be geniuses, but they are not sure of that yet. It's a tiny and wealthy country with very strong social policies and high levels of personal responsibility, their response won't automatically transfer elsewhere.

 

[DownUnderwater Dan]

She was not allowed to self quarantine and she knew that, explicitly. She knew returning to WA required hotel quarantine and she bypassed that by sneaking back. Self-quarantine, bollocks, she was hiding because she knew the conditions of her permit. She appealed her sentence, she won, the court process worked. Magistrates and Federal circuit judges err often enough for the appellate courts to exist, this is a non-issue for me.

Australia is a federation, the PM has no authority over state borders, its only Albo that is too vacuous to realise it. I dont agree with the closures but neither my opinion nor ScoMo's matter. Border controls work without closure, that is how the three girls from Logan were caught visiting Melbourne, their false declarations and subsequent rounding up and testing averted a serious risk. One of the people they infected in the restaurant by dining out when infectious and symptomatic was an aged care worker. The controls is what caught them in their malicious avoidance.

The health departments are primarily managing the responses, so its massively risk averse, but at least they are qualified and intelligent. I'd be more concerned if the politicians were managing things, 97% lawyers and union hacks with a random scattering of morons, 3% miscellaneous.

I wasn't quoting percentages or trends. It's the anedoctal recovery time of an individual case. Can't recall where but Victoria somewhere. This is not a common cold. The way they treat patients, the drugs used and the timing, when they ventilate and the precise timing of when the flip patients on ventilators to prone, these are factors in the mortality rates.

The epidemiologistics will be studying this for a decade. Sweden might turn out to be geniuses, but they are not sure of that yet. It's a tiny and wealthy country with very strong social policies and high levels of personal responsibility, their response won't automatically transfer elsewhere.

I know how it's going to turn out with the post-covid situation. It's only a matter of when.


If the world had to shutdown for 2-3 years because of deadly strain of flu, I would obligingly do so, & I would agree with it, the reason being that a deadly strain of flu poses a danger to all, whether they're at the prime of their life or a child.

With covid-19 the vast majority of infected show no symptoms. It's pretty self-explanatory mate

 

[Germie]

I would have gone last week if it was possible. The virus is for me no show stopper, I am not afraid of getting ill. I just see it is a minimal risk where driving a car is more dangerous.
But if I go, I want to have a normal holiday feeling, this means that I want to see Indonesia as it was, so freedom, no masks, just as it was, so wearing shoulders covered in tempels.

pcr testing is not trustable if you have no or only mild symptoms. Also that is known. Papaya's can also test positive.

 

[ToneNQ]

I know how it's going to turn out with the post-covid situation. It's only a matter of when.


If the world had to shutdown for 2-3 years because of deadly strain of flu, I would obligingly do so, & I would agree with it, the reason being that a deadly strain of flu poses a danger to all, whether they're at the prime of their life or a child.

With covid-19 the vast majority of infected show no symptoms. It's pretty self-explanatory mate

The shutdown has been six months, let's not blow this out of proportion. In 5yrs time you can speak to the world on how right you were. But otherwise this is a scuba forum and probably all of us have a dilettante understanding of virology and most of us have similar on statistics. The biggest number I've heard for asymptomatic people is about 40%, short of vast majority.

My wife works with high ranking public health expert, she has more PhDs and medical degrees than I have dive certs. My father-in-law has more published papers in respected journals than I have dives, most of them on viruses and RNA manipulation of viruses. When these people tell me how nuanced this virus is, and what they are learning about it, I listen. When you tell me how self-explanatory this is, I'm not swayed by the veracity of it.