Instructors: teaching neutrally buoyant

[Wibble]

Not possible to learn to fin in a single session. Takes weeks or months of practice to become competent -- the old Unconscious Competence

Back finning, as everyone knows, is the harder technique to master. One of the more useful finning techniques too, particularly not bumping into things, especially other divers when at deco (or 'safety' deco stops).

Surprised that these techniques aren't taught and coached as having proper core skills (buoyancy, finning, trim) is vital for so many recreational diving scenarios; photography, looking at nature, being around other divers, wreck penetration and being around wrecks, teaching.

At what point do these skills become required in the PADI pyramid? AI? Instructor? Obviously they'll be required for Technical courses. One hopes that the pre-requisite for teaching 'Tec' is demonstrating exemplary core skills.

 

[Angelo Farina]

LOL.. 100 meters in under a minute frog kicking....

Sorry, my error, it was 50m in less than one minute.
And you had the choice of the style (frog or crawl).
My wife swims frog almost uniquely and she had some problem passing this test.
For crawl swimmers it is easy.
My understanding is that some sort of swimming test is still a prerequisite also with today's standards.
On the other side, I fully understand that nowadays for many people a 6-months long course, where just 20% of initial students get certified, is something completely unacceptable.
In the seventies, however, this was the only way to become a certified scuba diver here in Italy. And the training did also include 2 months with the ARO (a military-style CC rebreather working with pure oxygen) before the final step with Open Circuit scuba systems (typically a 10+10 liters twinset).
The ARO part was dropped around 1985.

 

[Blackcrusader]

Here is a video posted in a dive forum today. It is the students first pool session for the OW class.

Philippine Scuba Diving Skills Training & Experiences

 

[Wibble]

Is "frog swimming" the same as breast stroke?

 

[jadairiii]

That's a bit different. I favour of neutral buoyancy early on but lying on the bottom first is OK. No kneeling, though.

I dont think you are understand. First skill is trim/neutral buoyancy. first is teaching the diver proper trim, (this obviously starts on the deck). using the bottom of the pool you get the new diver in the "proper trim", then have them start adding gas to the wing to bring them off the bottom. They come off the bottom, they are in trim and neutral. In my daughter's class, she and the other student had trim/buoyancy within 30 min.

At that point, no more bottom, all other skills (basic 5, gas sharing, smb launch) are done in neutral buoyancy and holding trim.

No kneeling, no skills are done on the bottom.

 

[The Chairman]

Not possible to learn to fin in a single session.

Sure it is. Pretty? Not often. Effective? All but one student has been good enough by the end of the first session. Again, monkey see, monkey dive. Your students want to be just like you, so set a great example.

FWIW, the one student was in split fins.

 

[The Chairman]

Is "frog swimming" the same as breast stroke?

No. No arms and the finning technique is different. When I see a good breast strokes, the feet go from inside to outside so the pressure is on the top of the foot. It's kind of counter intuitive for me. With a Scuba frog kick, the pressure is on the bottom as you try to clap the bottoms of your feet together. I tell my students that the power should be felt in the bottoms of your toes. The control is there too. The goal is to push as much water straight behind you with any spillage going above you.

 

[VikingDives]

If you're talking PADI, don't you have to certify them if they meet all the DM requirements? Or did the DM candidates you taught all happen to know frog kicking by chance?

Certify? Yes and no. There are some skills that are totally subjective, and allow you to keep anyone from certifying as a DM. Around here, DM is usually more OJT and less formalized classes, and it usually takes a minimum of 6 months to complete, but 9 months is probably average. That's ~100 pool hours, and ~100 dives.

All the instructors I work with start teaching the frog kick by AOW, and principally frog kick themselves. I guess it's a monkey see, monkey do thing. I'd say I see at least 25% trying it in OW, and by the end of rescue, it's close to 100%.

 

[boulderjohn]

If you're talking PADI, don't you have to certify them if they meet all the DM requirements? Or did the DM candidates you taught all happen to know frog kicking by chance?

Technically, you cannot FAIL a student for not being able to do something that is not in the standards, but in a practical sense, the rule is meaningless for two reasons.

1. If a DM candidate comes to you for a course, and you tell that candidate that in addition to those minimum requirements, in the course you teach the candidate will also learn the following additional skills, do you think the candidate is gong to insist on only getting the bare minimum? If so, no problem--find a different instructor.
2. Students don't FAIL a course. They keep at it until they get it right. There will therefore never be a time the student fails a course for something he or she is still working on.

 

[johndiver999]

Sorry, my error, it was 50m in less than one minute.
And you had the choice of the style (frog or crawl).
My wife swims frog almost uniquely and she had some problem passing this test.
For crawl swimmers it is easy.
My understanding is that some sort of swimming test is still a prerequisite also with today's standards.
On the other side, I fully understand that nowadays for many people a 6-months long course, where just 20% of initial students get certified, is something completely unacceptable.
In the seventies, however, this was the only way to become a certified scuba diver here in Italy. And the training did also include 2 months with the ARO (a military-style CC rebreather working with pure oxygen) before the final step with Open Circuit scuba systems (typically a 10+10 liters twinset).
The ARO part was dropped around 1985.

Thanks, those numbers were clearly unrealistic, both for the 100 m and 400 m swims. I would have been disappointed if you had not corrected that. Thank you for the clarification.