Instructors: teaching neutrally buoyant

[TMHeimer]

Well, this being an SDI shop, his idea of proper body position was with bent knees, so that set us to learning the frog kick.

Yeah, understandable. I use stiff legs for power and frog to relax. I can see how bent knees would help in setting to learn frog. And bent works too if you don't want speed. We should have been taught frog- had to figure that out on my own.

 

[VikingDives]

To tie it into this thread, I doubt any would have had anything but very minor problems to overcome had they been taught on their knees (they were...).

You'd think, but in my experience, this is the exception, not the rule. I was taught OW with 38 pounds of lead on my waist. At the time I weighed about 280 and was "the biggest guy who wasn't on steroids" in my gym. I was also a trained swimmer. I remember clearly being at the surface and kicking the entire time to keep my mouth above water with a full BCD.

My wife was in that same class. She weighed about 130 and she had 28 lbs around her waist. I clearly remember both of us fighting with everything. Constantly adding and removing air from our BCDs and feeling really frustrated with how we were moving about in the water.

I should add that I was swimming over 3000 meters a day back then. I was super comfortable in the water and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I was so uncomfortable. All our training was done glued to the bottom of a pool, and then a whole class swam around at that 45 degree angle. Neutral buoyancy was never mentioned, or taught.

I left that class frustrated because I didn't understand what the problem was. My wife left that class with the opinion that scuba was stressful, scary and not for her. It took 18 years, a lot of work on my part as a DM, and instructor; both my kids learning to dive, and a really good instructor (not me) helping her before she finally surfaced from a dive and said, "that was actually enjoyable."

I gave up on diving for years because of the crap instruction I'd received. It made diving not fun. Where it not for one of my closest friends taking up the sport, I'd be doing other things right now. The big problem isn't doing a few skills on your knees, it's that kneeling instruction and being over-weighted go hand in hand.

When you have those in combination, it often dissuades divers from continuing to dive because it sucks the fun out of something they thought would be awesome. While it may have been a minor inconvenience to you, I didn't have that experience at all.

As a DM, I was lucky to work with instructors who were taught by my OW instructor. It wasn't unusual for DM's to dive 4 pounds overweighted so we could drop like rocks to 80 feet in pursuit of divers who had no control or concept of buoyancy. It was, as a DM, very exciting and to this day I tell my DMs how good they have it. I don't think I've ever had a student have an uncontrolled descent, not because I'm some awesome instructor, but because I spend time making sure they have good control in mid-water.

 

[TMHeimer]

You'd think, but in my experience, this is the exception, not the rule. I was taught OW with 38 pounds of lead on my waist. At the time I weighed about 280 and was "the biggest guy who wasn't on steroids" in my gym. I was also a trained swimmer. I remember clearly being at the surface and kicking the entire time to keep my mouth above water with a full BCD.

My wife was in that same class. She weighed about 130 and she had 28 lbs around her waist. I clearly remember both of us fighting with everything. Constantly adding and removing air from our BCDs and feeling really frustrated with how we were moving about in the water.

I should add that I was swimming over 3000 meters a day back then. I was super comfortable in the water and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I was so uncomfortable. All our training was done glued to the bottom of a pool, and then a whole class swam around at that 45 degree angle. Neutral buoyancy was never mentioned, or taught.

I left that class frustrated because I didn't understand what the problem was. My wife left that class with the opinion that scuba was stressful, scary and not for her. It took 18 years, a lot of work on my part as a DM, and instructor; both my kids learning to dive, and a really good instructor (not me) helping her before she finally surfaced from a dive and said, "that was actually enjoyable."

I gave up on diving for years because of the crap instruction I'd received. It made diving not fun. Where it not for one of my closest friends taking up the sport, I'd be doing other things right now. The big problem isn't doing a few skills on your knees, it's that kneeling instruction and being over-weighted go hand in hand.

When you have those in combination, it often dissuades divers from continuing to dive because it sucks the fun out of something they thought would be awesome. While it may have been a minor inconvenience to you, I didn't have that experience at all.

As a DM, I was lucky to work with instructors who were taught by my OW instructor. It wasn't unusual for DM's to dive 4 pounds overweighted so we could drop like rocks to 80 feet in pursuit of divers who had no control or concept of buoyancy. It was, as a DM, very exciting and to this day I tell my DMs how good they have it. I don't think I've ever had a student have an uncontrolled descent, not because I'm some awesome instructor, but because I spend time making sure they have good control in mid-water.

I can't comment on weighting since I wear 42 pounds in salt water with a 7 mil farmer john wetsuit and AL80 tank. And, of course many think I'm crazy, except that this is what I require, and numerous instructors teaching and observing me agree.
I assume the pounds you mentioned are under similar circumstances, not for using a shorty in a fresh water pool.
Either way as you say, you were probably a better swimmer than I back then and still had huge problems. I would logically think you just had a lousy instructor who went nuts with weight.
We used either 8 or 12 pound soft wt. belts & shorty in the pool (if anyone had a big problem, weights were added in the pocket). I had no problems on my knees (well, I used one foot/knee forward and one backward, as kneeling gave me cramps) with any of the skills. As a DM at the pool I didn't really witness anyone toppling over or struggling a lot on the bottom or surface. Of course there was always the odd rare one.

 

[The Chairman]

How many blows would be the limit of acceptability in your opinion?

When we're practicing clearing the mask in the kiddie pool (no scuba), we don't move on until my students can clear their mask twice correctly on one inhale. The key is to not BLAST the air, but to clear the mask gently.

But how long should it take to get used to being neutrally buoyant diving on your own?

It depends on whether you get trim first. Trim is the foundation. Once you get your thrust truly horizontal, you've essentially stopped the air in/air out of the BC routine. I refuse to give out a card for my Trim, Neutral Buoyancy, and Trim clinics. It's a remedial class since they should have mastered this in OW. It doesn't take 100 dives to figure it out if you get them in trim first.

My only point has ever been that I don't think buoyancy is rocket science.

It's submarine science and the intertwined physics of trim, buoyancy, and propulsion is easy enough for the most rank beginner to understand.

Trim- yeah a little time on that, but again, once it's done it's done unless you change equipment.

It's important that the student be able to recognize when they're out of trim and just how to get it back again. They also have to be taught how to adjust their trim with their body. Something as simple as folding your hands out in front of you can be all you need to get your feet up. The placement of your arms and legs are important in how they affect your attitude in the water. Learning this takes a bit of time.

There are times to let your students figure out things. Most of the time what we do in Scuba is not all that intuitive. Before we even hit the pool, I spend ten minutes going over the physics of it all. Then, poolside before we splash, I spend five minutes teaching the mechanics of the frog kick. It's the opposite of what you learned in swim class.

My wife left that class with the opinion that scuba was stressful, scary and not for her.

How incredibly sad. I weight my students so that they are neutral. It makes kneeling problematic for them.They can easily get to the surface with no air in their BC. On the surface, they are taught to not ever kick unless they need to move towards something. Yes, I check.

When you have those in combination, it often dissuades divers from continuing to dive because it sucks the fun out of something they thought would be awesome.

OW should be all about putting the diver in control. When they can't establish neutral buoyancy, they are not in control and are often close to panic. A diver in control is a calm relaxed diver who has the capacity to spot trouble before it spots him. It's a matter of task loading and an out of control diver is focused on trying to get in control, often missing critical operations like checking their air. When they finally see something worth looking at, you'll see their control really go to hell. That can't be fun. Diving should all about the fun.

And, of course many think I'm crazy,

I wear 18 pounds with an AL80 and no exposure suit. I don't even need a bladder for this it's so perfect.

 

[Angelo Farina]

I am very old school, and stopped teaching professionally in 1989. Afterwards I and my wife did only train our two sons.
Our idea is that the training for scuba requires necessarily to master, one after the other, the following steps:
- swimming at the surface: at least 100m in less than one minute, both frog and crawl. Floating vertically with a weight of 5kg using alternate frog kicking and one-hand opposition for at least 3 minutes.
- swimming underwater (frog style, at least 25 meters horizontally, at least 5m vertically)
- snorkeling with good surface kicking with proper fins (at least 400m in less than 4 minutes)
- free diving with fins and mask (at least 50m horizontally in the pool, at least 15 meters depth in the sea)
- learning the "capovolta" (upside-down manouvre) for submerging when positively buoyant
- scuba diving with basic equipment (no BCD): breathing control (with the famous and generally deprecated inspiratory pause), mask removal and breathing without it, mask evacuation, buddy-breathing with a single reg, horizontal swimming with different kicking methods, vertical swimming with powerful free-diving kicking style, submerging with the "capovolta" when positively buoyant, counter-effecting strongly negative or strongly positive buoyancy using breathing control, fins and the the "hands opposition" technique.
- scuba diving with complete equipment: wet suit (forbidden in all previous steps), BCD, torch, computer, camera, etc.. Each piece of equipment is added one by one (the suit is the first). The BCD is very important and requires a lot of time for mastering buoyancy, trim and safe ascent procedures.
- nautical training about boats, knots, winds, waves, ladders, anchors, lines, sea-sickness, and all that is required when sharing a small inflatable boat with many other divers.

As you see, in this old-style approach the BCD is one of the very last things. But this is how I always trained my students, with very good results. I do not know if this is still feasible nowadays, as it requires at least three months in the pool and at least 10 sessions in the sea, the first half without scuba equipment.

 

[The Chairman]

To put in perspective how "in control" I want my students to be, I just posted this in the sitting buoyancy thread...

The last game of my OW class is underwater Jenga. It's a part of the final test that will allow them to graduate from the pool to OW. First, the student has to demonstrate that they can descend and ascend with just their breathing. After they do that three times without the use of their BC, they go to the weight line where I have set out a half dozen soft two-pound weights. Again, without touching their BC, they pick up the first weight and breathe themselves neutral. Once that looks good they pick up another weight, establish neutral buoyancy and repeat this until they can't pick up any more. The class record is 14 lbs and my personal record is 18 lbs. However, I require guys to do at least 6 pounds and women at least 4 lbs. Of course, they have to shed these weights without rocketing to the surface. Then, with the pile of weights just in front of us, we start building houses. Two sides and a roof and now let's add two more sides and a roof. It's fun and you can hear them laugh when the weights slide to one side ruining their build. Look what they're doing. They are having to hover in place, pick up two pounds and then place that weight in a specific spot. They're just inches off the bottom, doing an awesome hover, keeping their trim, and having a great time. That is control. That is what I want in a diver.​

 

[jadairiii]

...unfortunately not all students that drop in the shallow end of a pool are going to have that skill set right off the bat

I know that my friend/dive instructor that taught my daughter this summer starts the brand new students on the bottom of the pool on their stomach, so they immediately start off becoming comfortable in a horizonal position, then brings them off the bottom slowly. That is skill number one, then he builds off of that, all other skills are taught while holding neutral buoyancy.

Why choose GUE Rec-1?

 

[TMHeimer]

I know that my friend/dive instructor that taught my daughter this summer starts the brand new students on the bottom of the pool on their stomach, so they immediately start off becoming comfortable in a horizonal position, then brings them off the bottom slowly. That is skill number one, then he builds off of that, all other skills are taught while holding neutral buoyancy.

Why choose GUE Rec-1?

That's a bit different. I favour of neutral buoyancy early on but lying on the bottom first is OK. No kneeling, though.

 

[TMHeimer]

I am very old school, and stopped teaching professionally in 1989. Afterwards I and my wife did only train our two sons.
Our idea is that the training for scuba requires necessarily to master, one after the other, the following steps:
- swimming at the surface: at least 100m in less than one minute, both frog and crawl. Floating vertically with a weight of 5kg using alternate frog kicking and one-hand opposition for at least 3 minutes.
- swimming underwater (frog style, at least 25 meters horizontally, at least 5m vertically)
- snorkeling with good surface kicking with proper fins (at least 400m in less than 4 minutes)
- free diving with fins and mask (at least 50m horizontally in the pool, at least 15 meters depth in the sea)
- learning the "capovolta" (upside-down manouvre) for submerging when positively buoyant
- scuba diving with basic equipment (no BCD): breathing control (with the famous and generally deprecated inspiratory pause), mask removal and breathing without it, mask evacuation, buddy-breathing with a single reg, horizontal swimming with different kicking methods, vertical swimming with powerful free-diving kicking style, submerging with the "capovolta" when positively buoyant, counter-effecting strongly negative or strongly positive buoyancy using breathing control, fins and the the "hands opposition" technique.
- scuba diving with complete equipment: wet suit (forbidden in all previous steps), BCD, torch, computer, camera, etc.. Each piece of equipment is added one by one (the suit is the first). The BCD is very important and requires a lot of time for mastering buoyancy, trim and safe ascent procedures.
- nautical training about boats, knots, winds, waves, ladders, anchors, lines, sea-sickness, and all that is required when sharing a small inflatable boat with many other divers.

As you see, in this old-style approach the BCD is one of the very last things. But this is how I always trained my students, with very good results. I do not know if this is still feasible nowadays, as it requires at least three months in the pool and at least 10 sessions in the sea, the first half without scuba equipment.

Excellent stuff. In your class I would have had to:
--learn the frog kick.
--get some help freediving to make 15 meters (maybe I could do half that?)
--don't think I could've swam underwater without fins as far as 75 meters, again maybe half? 5m vertically no problem.

Think I could have done your "basic equipment" skills after being explained what to do. The boat stuff would have been a breeze because I knew all that.

I would imagine you would have had a lot of remedial training to to back then with some of the students who sign up today.

But of course hardly anyone would sign up for such a course in today's world. Maybe someone who took it one-on-one and had the time because they didn't have a job and were independently wealthy.

 

[johndiver999]

I am very old school, and stopped teaching professionally in 1989. Afterwards I and my wife did only train our two sons.
Our idea is that the training for scuba requires necessarily to master, one after the other, the following steps:
- swimming at the surface: at least 100m in less than one minute, both frog and crawl. Floating vertically with a weight of 5kg using alternate frog kicking and one-hand opposition for at least 3 minutes.
- swimming underwater (frog style, at least 25 meters horizontally, at least 5m vertically)
- snorkeling with good surface kicking with proper fins (at least 400m in less than 4 minutes)
- free diving with fins and mask (at least 50m horizontally in the pool, at least 15 meters depth in the sea)
- learning the "capovolta" (upside-down manouvre) for submerging when positively buoyant
- scuba diving with basic equipment (no BCD): breathing control (with the famous and generally deprecated inspiratory pause), mask removal and breathing without it, mask evacuation, buddy-breathing with a single reg, horizontal swimming with different kicking methods, vertical swimming with powerful free-diving kicking style, submerging with the "capovolta" when positively buoyant, counter-effecting strongly negative or strongly positive buoyancy using breathing control, fins and the the "hands opposition" technique.
- scuba diving with complete equipment: wet suit (forbidden in all previous steps), BCD, torch, computer, camera, etc.. Each piece of equipment is added one by one (the suit is the first). The BCD is very important and requires a lot of time for mastering buoyancy, trim and safe ascent procedures.
- nautical training about boats, knots, winds, waves, ladders, anchors, lines, sea-sickness, and all that is required when sharing a small inflatable boat with many other divers.

As you see, in this old-style approach the BCD is one of the very last things. But this is how I always trained my students, with very good results. I do not know if this is still feasible nowadays, as it requires at least three months in the pool and at least 10 sessions in the sea, the first half without scuba equipment.

LOL.. 100 meters in under a minute frog kicking....