Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

[The Chairman]

An ad hominem is a logical fallacy wherein one asserts that another's argument is wrong purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the other person.

My last post about your ad hominem. I highlighted the part you committed. Subject please?

You made a claim:

I illustrated a point. {snipping all of the sniping}

You ignored what I had said and instead of responding insulted me

No insult was intended. You either know how to do a skill, or you don't. You don't seem to comprehend this skill from your own words so most would assume that you do not know how to accomplish it.

But the REAL issue... is your reference to a "REAL OCEAN". Some would take that to be a veiled insult, but aside from that, you have never answered this adequately. What makes certain oceans real, while others are deemed to being not real? You seem to want ALL Open Water Divers to prepare for the coming doom of monofilament gill nets, and I, as well as a host of divers here on ScubaBoard, do not see the reasoning for it. We are more likely to be hit by a boat here in Florida than to be victimized by your roaming gill nets.

It's my assertion that you rely on a testosterone laced vision of what a "real ocean" is, to somehow negate the experiences of %95 percent of all dives. I illustrated that just because a FEW divers need to follow certain protocols, that does not necessitate ALL of us following those protocols, and that indeed those protocols would most certainly be outside of most any Open Water Curriculum. There is no need to create Uber Divers, capable of diving your "Real Oceans" from the onset of their diving careers. Divers SHOULD build on their skill set by diving in waters of similar conditions in which they were trained, until such time as they increase their skills and training to be able to take on more demanding conditions.

 

[Peter Guy]

Thal -- Thank you, I now have a sig liine:

you flop off a boat like a dead tuna into gin clear water that is the temperature of a urine sample

 

[Web Monkey]

You guys (and me now) don't dive in the "real ocean" that I'm taking about. As Tim Cahill described it, "you flop off a boat like a dead tuna into gin clear water that is the temperature of a urine sample.

How much "sucking" do you require for it to be "real"?

• Low viz?
• Cold?
• Current
• High current?
• If you let go of the line, you'll be in Newfoundland before the ferry starts running again?
• Ice on the shore?
• Ice on the boat?
• Ice inside the inflator?
• Ice inside the drysuit hose quick-connect?
• Drysuit makes crunchy noises and can't be unzipped until you get indoors?
• Can't fasten weight-belt because it's now solid and slightly thicker?

Terry

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal -- Thank you, I now have a sig liine:

Please do not credit me, credit to Tim Cahill, "On the Natural Superiority of California Divers," in either Sport Diver or Ocean Realm, back in the late 1970s.

 

[Thalassamania]

But the REAL issue... is your reference to a "REAL OCEAN". Some would take that to be a veiled insult, but aside from that, you have never answered this adequately. What makes certain oceans real, while others are deemed to being not real? l

Wow! I did not intend it that way at all, I meant nothing more than a "short hand" for somewhat more challenging diving. I apologize profusely.

 

[3000psi]

Have there even been any injuries attributed to integrated weights?

I simply LOVE the advent of on-line learning of the academics as well as other improvements in the sport. The regs breathe better, especially at depth, the BCs are way more convenient, the masks and fins are better designed (though I admit to still using Jet Fins for 40 years now).

NetDoc if you will check one of the recent "alert diver" issues you will find a mention of a case where a lady was separated from her buddy and had returned to shore. She was found by another diver that saw her face down struggling to get out of the water. He tired to release her integrated weights but the tabs had become blocked by sand preventing jettisoning of the weights. He finally got her to safety with some difficulty but had he not come along it could have had a tragic ending. If I remember the article right she had forgotten her weight belt and a rental BC with the integrated weight system was given as a substitute.

I personally use some integrated weights as well as a weight belt. This gives me the added flexibility of deciding how much weight I need to get rid of without having an all or nothing decision. I also like having a weight belt to fine tune and adjust my trim. My body is such that I need the weight more around my hips to have the proper trim but when photographing something near the bottom I can reposition the weight allowing my body to float in more of a head down feet up position to hopefully prevent any contact. This control is just not possible for me if all my weight was integrated in a BC. YMMV

As for your statement about on-line learning did you mean to infer it is an improvement ? I can see how it is more convenient for the student and also for an instructor who feels he no longer needs to do lectures. But are you suggesting you feel on-line learning offers a richer and superior learning experience to a classroom setting ?

 

[NudeDiver]

Yes. We're off topic and hijacking the thread but it may be worth starting another one on this subject?

As I don't own or run an LDS I can't get down to all the finesse on what's going on here, however:

1. Air/EANx compressors: checked by the Industry Department of the local "autonomy" (rather like a state in the US). Yearly.
2. Opening licence. Conceded by the City Hall.
3. You can't have an LDS without a boat, even if you are going to do shore entries.
4. How deep you can dive mandated by the National Public Works Department/Ministry and each autonomy. Current max. depth on air is 130ft. So if you go beyond you are breaking the law unless you are a licensed commercial diver. You can exceptionally go down to 180ft on air or another mix if you have been trained and certified to do so. It is illegal to breathe underwater Air at more than 6.0 Bar, Nitrogen at more than 5.6 Bar and O2 at more than 1.4 Bar. The Scuba Police are going to fine you for breathing 1.5 Bar ppO2!!!!5. Night diving is now illegal, nationally.
6. Solo Diving is prohibited.
7. All boat Captains must now be certified commercial skippers. Two divers have to stay aboard the boat ready to enter the water in case of emergency.
8. When the boat goes out, the skipper must have a photocopy of the certifications and insurance cards or policies of every diver.
9. The Civil Guard, which is a military federal police force, enforces compliance on the shore, in the harbor and at sea.
10. All equipment sold and used must conform to CE (European Union) spec.
11. When a student signs up for a course they have to bring an official medical certificate which they can only buy in a pharmacy and the have their doctor sign off that they are "fit for recreational diving". So a waiver isn't good enough. After that all divers should have a medical certificate done once every two years.
12. All divers must dive with a BCD, either a Depth Gauge and a watch or a PDC , a knife, an SPG or a "J" valve, principal 2nd stage and an AAS (i.e. a LPI integrated AAS is illegal). (Nothing is said about masks, snorkels, fins, etc)

Wow. Glad I don't live there!! Although the National Socialists were considered defeated at the end of WWII, it would seem that their spirit lives on!

 

[The Chairman]

As for your statement about on-line learning did you mean to infer it is an improvement ? I can see how it is more convenient for the student and also for an instructor who feels he no longer needs to do lectures. But are you suggesting you feel on-line learning offers a richer and superior learning experience to a classroom setting ?

For academics only, I believe it offers most students a better learning environment, including consistency, convenience and thoroughness. There is no need for a sage on the stage to imbue you with the wonders and mystery of diving during academics. There is plenty of time for that during the more important practical portion of the class. Indeed, freeing me from classroom duties allows me more time in the pool and in open water. That's what my students really need.

 

[rescue15]

There has been alot of talk on "real World" and "real ocean". I believe these terms have as wide variety in their definition dependent on where you learn to dive and dive.

Without a doubt, there have been alot of things taken out of OW dive programs over the years and somebody said the reason is the agencies are giving people what they want. I am sure this is true across the board...PADI, SDI, NAUI and the rest of them too. I see this as a bad thing. You aren't trained as thoroughly and you aren't fully trained to deal with the "what ifs".

I firmly believe you should dive your comfort level and experience. Someone who learned to dive in the Key's, only has 30 dives in the keys -even if he has AOW (the SDI version, not the Advanced adventure cert that PADI gives) has no business doing a 130 foot wreck dive off the coast of Long Island. That diver is simply not prepared for the limited viz, currents, temperature and several other factors that make North Atlantic diving so tough.

Just to illustrate:
On a recent trip to Key Largo, the captain gave it serious thought to cancel a dive because of reports of 1 to 2 foot seas in Pennecamp! We went, and people were complaining about how rough the water was, the DM warned of excessive current, threw out a trail line, etc. - I couldn't see what they were complaining about.

If these divers would go north...even just to Maryland, they would be a liability in the water. Did they get bad training? No, but they didn't have the appropriate training or EXPERIENCE for the environment they are diving in. Key divers are not prepared for the currents, lo viz, gill nets, fishing line, rough water. should I go on? This is what people are referring to as real world/real ocean. We are not trying to insult those who dive in warm water with great viz...some of us are jealous! We are just trying to say, be sure to dive your experience and comfort level. I think it's gerat to be able to do a neutral bouyancy check out in the ocean. That would be next to impossible in many areas of the North Atlantic (thank God for quarries).

I mentioned proper EXPERIENCE. Experience is every bit as valuable as proper training - maybe even more important on some occasions. I will leave it at that so not to hijack the thread.

Thanks for listening.

Steve

 

[evac93rd]

Well as a new diver, I still have my own viewpoint. Being new doesn't make them less valid for a form such as this I suppose. On the subject of "modern equipment", once I get to about 60 dives I will qualify (in the eyes of our tech instructor") to take Intro to Tech and then Intro to Cavern.

In Cavern Diving, aside from a reel and the required # of lights, knives, etc., they all use a weight integrated BCD. Most of them use a Galileo Sol as well for their Cave and Cavern Diving BUT they all have a separate 2 gauge hose mounted spg and depth gauge as a back-up.

The divers in our club who dive in dry suits will often use a weight belt and ankle weights as well as integrated weights as weight distribution seems to be a critical factor for this kind of diving.

Although I personally cannot visualize a situation were a weight belt would be easier than an integrated system to release in an entanglement, I am as I have noted a fairly new diver. While I am always open to new information and discussion in any area, I am always somewhat leary of broad statements that don't seem to fit my current understanding of things.

And I always hand sew the Vena Cava.