Student brings BP/W to OW class.

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halemanō;5982166:
If one is hoping to "easily" teach new divers about controlling their body position under water the differences in design between back inflate BC's and vest BC's do make some things easier and some things harder. :idk:

"'Easily' teach" implies that it is easy on the instructor, not necessarily the student.

There is SO much an OW student learns during during OW, I would be surprised if the slight differences in ease of instruction or ease of learning would make much of a difference to the student. They are saturated with new information and they are very green. The differences between the two configurations become increasingly noticeable once you have an understanding of buoyancy and trim, not necessarily when you are learning what they are. The student understands buoyancy control and trim as he achieves control, and the ease in which he gains that control is the issue. Personally, having dove both configurations when I was a new student, I found the BP/W easier on trim and more difficult on buoyancy (more a factor of over-weighting, had I been properly weighted I suspect there would not have been a difference.)

I appreciate your water-skiing analogy, though I don't feel learning in a BP/W is more difficult than a traditional vest.. there's not a substantial initial toil. Here, it is not hard to find a shop that uses primarily back-inflate, and there are even shops that rent primarily BP/Ws. The instructors I know that teach from the BP/W shops are excellent. If a student has their own gear and are not in a shop BP/W, they teach them in what they have, though I sometimes hear some frustration as those tend to be the students that struggle with things that the instructor may feel could be fixed with a BP/W. And if the student tries the BP/W, they usually make the switch because they find it easier.

Your point about the "skiing around the boat" is well taken. In North and Central Florida, if a student becomes an active diver and has the desire (which is a minority, but there is a substantial population here given the proximity to cave country) they may progress rather quickly into overhead environments, more a factor of water temperature than anything else. It's where you dive in the winter. That might not be a good thing. And learning in the "wrong" gear for that environment might slow a student down as they make the switch, or might get them killed in a cloud of silt at the bottom of a supposedly OW friendly cavern. I can think of 2 that are regularly dove by OW divers that, at 100 ft at the bottom of the line, have a pretty soft bottom and access to a cave. One is a very popular OW training site. OW divers have died at both. The again, learning or diving a BP/W doesn't make those environments any safer either, and may give the student a false sense of security, so really it's a whole separate issue. But if they live in an area where it matters, learning good trim (which is easier in a BP/W) and finning techniques early will make them safer divers.
 
You have received good responses from instructors who see no problem in teaching students who are in a BP/W. Just make sure that the chosen instructor is ready and willing to teach your GF.

could not agree more! sounds like the instructor has the issue. possibly his lack of familiarity is clouding his ability to teach.
 
Id have no issue if a student turned up with that gear at all. I know a LOT of instructors would say no purely as they have never seen a wing/harness and have absolutely NO idea how one works and how to adjust it at all. (This board is not a representative sample of divers and instructors!).

You'd need a little longer with the student before the pool to get it adjusted properly but after that no problem.

I teach all the OW part of my courses in a one with one piece harness and long hose myself.

I really can't see the difference. BCs have all kinds of different clips and releases and methods for connecting them up. They have no standard length inflation hose and some lack one at all. The have no standard number or location of pull dumps. No standard place to put an octopus and so on. So why is a wing/harness somehow "more difficult" when BCs have no standardisation at all anyway?
 
Most of my OW students use the same rental gear as they had in the pool. It's pretty rare to get someone who has invested in a BC.

But some certainly do enough reading to feel they can make a proper decision without ever having been in open water. In those cases I think it is about 50/50 to see students to show up in a BP/W. Either way makes no difference to me.

What IS vexing is seeing students show up for more advanced classes with BP/W, doubles, long hose and the like that have never been wet.
 
…What IS vexing is seeing students show up for more advanced classes with BP/W, doubles, long hose and the like that have never been wet.

Why is that surprising (sincere question)? A 12 year old with 50 dives can be issued a “Master Scuba Diver” card. At that rate a person could easily meet the requirements never having made an unsupervised training dive. Most anyone can buy a drysuit and doubles, but many shops won’t rent them without the specialty C-card. Consequently, a new diver is lead to believe they should not dive that gear before being trained. I agree with you, but can see how it will become the norm.
 
Why is that surprising (sincere question)? A 12 year old with 50 dives can be issued a “Master Scuba Diver” card. At that rate a person could easily meet the requirements never having made an unsupervised training dive. Most anyone can buy a drysuit and doubles, but many shops won’t rent them without the specialty C-card. Consequently, a new diver is lead to believe they should not dive that gear before being trained. I agree with you, but can see how it will become the norm.


I am happy to to train divers with any piece of gear they desire to use. (assuming I have experience with it)

But if the course is "Wreck Diver", and one of the students shows up in a shiny new set of tanks and long-hose the class is quickly going to turn into "how to dive doubles".

That would be fine except I then have to set aside time for this single student to go over many of the skills that were not part of the original intent of the class.

Plus it makes me responsible for their safety when using gear that has a substantially greater learning curve that what they are already used to.

As diving becomes more popular, and information is more readily available via the internet, I am starting to see an increase in students with gear that may be beyond their training.

I know the point of the thread is whether or not a BP/W is ok for an OW class and I cannot imagine why it would not be.

I was just musing on the question of what is or is not appropriate gear for a particular course.
 
…But if the course is "Wreck Diver", and one of the students shows up in a shiny new set of tanks and long-hose the class is quickly going to turn into "how to dive doubles"...

I don’t follow retail diver training so pardon my ignorance. Is there a specific course for doubles or is it more an issue with people not being comfortable in their gear? I suppose my perspective is skewed because I have been at it so long. It it is hard for me to appreciate why more than looking at an isolation manifold and doing a dive to dial in buoyancy is necessary.
 
I don’t follow retail diver training so pardon my ignorance. Is there a specific course for doubles or is it more an issue with people not being comfortable in their gear?

I don't know of a particular agency course that simply focuses on diving doubles. If I have a student that wants me to teach them that I am happy to do so outside the agency guideline. But it takes time.

It it is hard for me to appreciate why more than looking at an isolation manifold and doing a dive to dial in buoyancy is necessary.

If you have four students who signed up for a class and one of them is hoping to do it in new doubles that extra dive to "dial in buoyancy" for him or her is going to take time away from the rest of the members.

That doesn't include the time necessary to instruct on valve drills, use of a long hose and many of the other assorted tasks required to properly use that gear before they can be trusted to dive as a group.

Now, if the entire class were similarly attired it would be an entirely different matter. Those classes go well.

But I was speaking of how to deal with that ONE student that requires more personal attention due to gear choices.
 
Well, according to a recent thread in the Technical forum there's now a PADI specialty that allows a diver with as few as 10 dives into doubles. They will then plant you on the bottom and show you how to do valve drills ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Well, according to a recent thread in the Technical forum there's now a PADI specialty that allows a diver with as few as 10 dives into doubles. They will then plant you on the bottom and show you how to do valve drills ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

That sounds about right.

My first dive in doubles had me on the quarry's silty bottom, upside-down and laughing my ass off directly through my regulator. (LP 121's)

Over the years my doubles got smaller and my ass grew bigger.
 
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