Student brings BP/W to OW class.

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Well, according to a recent thread in the Technical forum there's now a PADI specialty that allows a diver with as few as 10 dives into doubles. They will then plant you on the bottom and show you how to do valve drills ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Why do you need lots of dives to use a twinset? Its not rocket science. Most people self-teach. Also why are you claiming that instructors are going to kneel people on the bottom to do valve drills? Where does it say THAT in the standards?!

Its probably better than someone going out, buying a tiny pony then doing deep dives feeling they're invincible having never worked out or been shown how to work out its limitations!

 

[DevonDiver]

Technically, there's no reason why a diver couldn't even do their OW course in a set of doubles...

 

[Majickyl]

Why do you need lots of dives to use a twinset?

I suppose you don't, but I have heard new divers that have poor consumption planning to buy doubles just to carry enough gas to match a buddy with average consumption. At 10 dives, the solution to being a Hoover isn't a twinset, it's more diving.

 

[DevonDiver]

In the UK, the use of small capacity (7l) doubles is quite popular. Benefits being redundancy and better weight loading/stability (than a single large cylinder).

I think it'd be fun to teach OW like that.

 

[Majickyl]

In the UK, the use of small capacity (7l) doubles is quite popular. Benefits being redundancy and better weight loading/stability (than a single large cylinder).

I think it'd be fun to teach OW like that.

Hmmm... Hadn't considered that.

 

[Akimbo]

In the UK, the use of small capacity (7l) doubles is quite popular. Benefits being redundancy and better weight loading/stability (than a single large cylinder)...

I’m building a set of inverted/valve-down doubles with Faber LP-45/7Liter cylinders for that reason. The manifold is custom starting with a rebreather valve on the left and an OMS 300 Bar DIN valve on the right. There is ½” between bottles for an overall width a little over 11½". The rebreather valve serves as an isolation valve on the left cylinder. I have come to like progressive equalizing, a technique I first learned from an ex-Royal Navy diver. I’m working on the bands and stand/valve cage today.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

If one is hoping to "easily" teach new divers about controlling their body position under water the differences in design between back inflate BC's and vest BC's do make some things easier and some things harder.

"'Easily' teach" implies that it is easy on the instructor, not necessarily the student.

I would contend that it depends on one's definition of teaching. I was raised as a "campus brat" where nearly every one of my father's friends was a College or University Professor, with a degree in teaching. To me, teaching is a two way street and if you were to have noticed my "next" post in this thread, speaking directly to your SO, I contend I fully explained where from I typed.

So just to clarify; the statement we have been discussing in this tangent is ....

"easier on the new student diver"

I further contend that the majority of dive instructors have no clue about teaching, but luckily diving is so easy that it is not much of an issue, at least from a fatality standpoint.

A few years ago there was a prominent camp here on ScubaBoard who claimed that buoyancy control could not be taught; contending that it could only be learned. Now, after an experienced Education specialist has "scripted" a way for "instructors" to conduct buoyancy training where the student learns buoyancy control, that prominent camp are now camp followers.

My final contention in this post is that real teachers do not need scripts to teach, and as proof I would point to the Scripts Howard syllabus.

There is another prominent camp here on ScubaBoard that considers the BP/W to be the superior BC, but I would ask you if you really learned how to control your body's trim in your OW class or did you use gear that really controlled your body's trim in your OW class?

I hit the pool all decked out and remember descending and immediately being "thrown" into a horizontal position and thinking "Oh, THAT'S what they mean by TRIM!" And I never went back.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

There is another prominent camp here on ScubaBoard that considers the BP/W to be the superior BC, but I would ask you if you really learned how to control your body's trim in your OW class or did you use gear that really controlled your body's trim in your OW class?

I hate to be the one to tell you but some designs are just inherently better than others.
I don't see a piece of equipment that holds a new diver in a better position more effortlessly a bad thing.
I see a convoluted over padded piece of poodle jacket hell causing more frustration, stress, and anxiety with new divers than a simple BP/W.

 

[Thalassamania]

It's a problem of what do you want to do. If you want to dive horizontal in all things, in most cases, a BP/W will serve better. Add a dash too much weight, put a little air in the bag and most people will be almost stuck horizontal ... some BCs do the same thing. Horse collars are worse because they put you in an almost untenable position, first vertical and then chest high ... a real pain. Some BCs (poodle vest variety) actually permit much greater freedom, you can fairly easily maintain almost any position/attitude in the water ... but that takes some training, a little skill and some practice. I try not to put any air in any of them so it really doesn't matter. If I have to compensate for a big gas load ... I'd rather use a BP/W, but that's just because it makes doubles easier.

 

[Majickyl]

Wow...

Having had nearly 10 years of post-secondary education, and having done some teaching myself, I've come into contact with many excellent teachers and while I would agree that the teacher/student relationship is a two way street, the act of teaching, by definition, is directional. I did notice your previous post, but fail to see how you explained your position, rather that you attempted to clarify the issue at hand.

I suppose I have been blessed in that I have had many instructors that were excellent teachers - then again I did my research and chose those instructors who had a reputation as such. I also began my training within academia, so I suppose I have not been exposed to the unfortunate majority you speak of.

As a neuroscientist, I understand quite well how learning and memory work, and that motor skills must be learned by physically performing the skill. While visualization and conceptual knowledge imparted by an instructor is beneficial in that it arms the student with ways to make adjustments, actually learning a physical skill like buoyancy control and maintaining trim requires trial and error on the part of the student. There will always be a certain level of disconnect, and no "script" will close it, because that is not how the brain works.

I am not sure what you meant by the Scripts Howard syllabus, but if it is truly "proof" that "real teachers don't need scripts to teach" it might be of some help to me in my own teaching. I would appreciate it if you could provide the syllabus. The only "Scripts Howard" I am aware of is the Scripps Howard News Service who happens to administer the national spelling bee.

I also do not claim to have learned to control trim in my OW class, but as I said learning a physical skill requires trial and error, much the way a baby learns to walk. I got my first taste of what trim felt like the first time I wore a BP/W. I also learned what a taco'd wing feels like, and how it's possible to be in trim with an awful pitch! But it was a first step, after which I understood what I was striving for. If the goal is to have good horizontal trim, why would I not utilize gear that helps me achieve that goal?

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