Vortex 3-18-2012

[Tao of the Dive]

I suppose people are too busy waxing whimsical about science fiction radio repeaters for additional 'cave safety' and trying to catch other divers in lies about whether or not they dove in Vortex recently or not, pushing some unknown agenda. Never mind we are on an accident thread where family has already poked their head in here to see if we can provide them a grain of understanding or truth they cannot seem to get from the mainstream media. We owe it to Larry, his family, and ourselves to understand what happened in that cave. The cave manuals are written in blood, lets not make it a wasted effort.

 

[Jax]

I had a few questions too, Jaxx.... for one, what did he get hung up on? But I'm guessing no one knows yet... so...

Grace, this is what a sidemount diver looks like:

(from the Internet)

Now, imagine trying to crawl under two king-size beds that are side by side, through to the other side, with all that on. It's the cave you get hung-up on.

Mind you, this is all from asking a myriad of questions from real cave divers. You learn to sense when pulling yourself forward will get you free, versus getting you more stuck. That is why you have seen so many people saying that Larry didn't have enough experience, nor exposure to diving this kind of small, silty cave.

The story goes that Larry was found, but Eduardo couldn't get him out. That means he was stuck very hard.

So, when Edd Sorenson went in, he know how far, what conditions, how to plan his gas . . . all to get someone unstuck. I saw elsewhere where someone said, Edd returned to the cave to get Larry's equipment. So, Edd had to separate Larry from his equipment to get him out.

I hope that helps. If I am in error, someone please chime in.

 

[JamesK]

I had a few questions too, Jaxx.... for one, what did he get hung up on? But I'm guessing no one knows yet... so...

Grace, details are going to take a while to come out, if ever. The IUCRR does a great job on recovery and is a huge asset to our community, but we don't always get the details and the accident analysis from the recoveries. The picture that Jax posted is a good indication of what his gear probably looked like. He was crawling through some very tight areas that far back in the cave. Belly to ground and back to ceiling type areas quite possibly. Without full details, anything we say is simply speculation. I have not seen any reports if he was actually stuck there and that is where the trouble began, or if the trouble was somewhere else and he used to much of his gas to get out and ran out there. Unless I missed it in all of this, we don't even know what gases he was breathing. The unanswered questions are just to many right now to get a good solid grip on what happened.

 

[Grace67]

Thank you so much Jaxx that does help. I figured the equipment was part of it, may have been wedged. And Larry was among other things very much a fighter. I know it probably made him more hung up, but I can't imagine him not fighting with everything he had to try to get out. And it makes more sense about the experience that everyone is talking about (in the getting stuck part).

I wish he had had a way to leave a note or something... I know he would have done it if he could.

 

[Jax]

Thank you so much Jaxx that does help. I figured the equipment was part of it, may have been wedged. And Larry was among other things very much a fighter. I know it probably made him more hung up, but I can't imagine him not fighting with everything he had to try to get out. And it makes more sense about the experience that everyone is talking about (in the getting stuck part).

I wish he had had a way to leave a note or something... I know he would have done it if he could.

You know it!

 

[jeffloughridge]

I don't want to cause drift again, but I am compelled to reply regarding a signalling system. I'm going to throw this out there not because I think it is a good idea (I don't) but to illustrate there is a simple solution. This would basically be a technical solution to a training problem, hence it is a bad idea. However:

It could be done very simply and cheaply by running a thin, insulated wire, just one or two strands spun in a line. A low voltage is run through the wires and as long as continuity remains there is no alarm. If the line is cut, continuity is interrupted and an alarm goes off. A basic TDR (Time Domain Reflectometer) is used to pulse the line and give the exact distance to the fault. You have your location.

No RF, no VLF, no repeaters. This is similar to what railroads use to monitor continuity of their rails.

Jeff Loughridge

 

[JamesK]

I don't want to cause drift again, but I am compelled to reply regarding a signalling system. I'm going to throw this out there not because I think it is a good idea (I don't) but to illustrate there is a simple solution. This would basically be a technical solution to a training problem, hence it is a bad idea. However:

It could be done very simply and cheaply by running a thin, insulated wire, just one or two strands spun in a line. A low voltage is run through the wires and as long as continuity remains there is no alarm. If the line is cut, continuity is interrupted and an alarm goes off. A basic TDR (Time Domain Reflectometer) is used to pulse the line and give the exact distance to the fault. You have your location.

No RF, no VLF, no repeaters. This is similar to what railroads use to monitor continuity of their rails.

Jeff Loughridge

One problem being, if this is run as the mainline in a cave system, and you experience trouble and cut it, you might have someone coming for you. But what do you now do about the possibility of another team being in the cave at the time and once that line is cut, and a strong flow pushes it out, the other team has no guideline to the surface.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

The story goes that Larry was found, but Eduardo couldn't get him out. That means he was stuck very hard.

I thought from other threads that it was stated that recovery is left to IUCCR folks because they are trained to observe and preserve the scene. I presume that when Eduardo located Larry, it was obvious to him this was a recovery, not a rescue, and he waited for the appropriate folks.

I hope someone who knows more will confirm or correct this.

 

[mike_s]

I thought from other threads that it was stated that recovery is left to IUCCR folks because they are trained to observe and preserve the scene. I presume that when Eduardo located Larry, it was obvious to him this was a recovery, not a rescue, and he waited for the appropriate folks.

I hope someone who knows more will confirm or correct this.

speculation... but. ...

Perhaps Eduardo realized Larry was stuck more he could get out and how tight it was and had the sense not to cause himself to become a second victim.

 

[Dive-aholic]

.....

---------- Post added at 08:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 AM ----------

The story goes that Larry was found, but Eduardo couldn't get him out. That means he was stuck very hard.

Eduardo dives backmount not sidemount. If Eduardo was able to get to him it couldn't have been very tight. So either he only saw him or he couldn't get in close enough to get the leverage he needed.