Vortex 3-18-2012

[wtcreaux]

And what happens when people start diving differently because they think they will get rescued?

Unfortunately.......I believe we would see an increased number of deaths as folks would depend upon technology to "save them" rather than good training, planning, equipment, etc. We've already seen such dependence on technology replacing common sense in mountaineering - people race to the top "light" (meaning not carrying the proper clothing/equipment) thinking they can call for help (one used his cell phone and called but was found dead from hypothermia) (see Death on Mount hood - What happened to the three North Face climbers? )

For those Rescue Divers (actually ANY diver) - Your Instructor borrowed a line from Fire/Rescue - 1st rule in Rescue??? DONT BECOME A VICTIM.

Having spent 30+ years in Emergency Services, Rescue doesn't happen quickly......(see rule above)......1) Someone has to raise alarm (notify authorities), 2) Team has to be dispatched and arrive (volunteer teams take longer to respond v "stand-by teams", i.e. fire department), 3) Information must be gathered to focus the search, 4) Team members suit up and double-check ALL rigging (again, see rule #1), 5) Active search members work their way towards the victim (this can be slow and tedious depending upon surroundings). Granted, some of these things will happen simultaneously. Rescue is a process and can be tediously slow to onlookers. But is it worth it to lose rescuers for the "possibility" of a live victim?? Anyone remember the Crandall Canyon Mine collapse (2007, Utah)?? 3 rescuers died and 6 injured in an attempt to locate 12 missing miners............the mine was sealed.

 

[lamont]

Assuming this whole argument about the GF and Eduardo and wasting 60-90 minutes is remotely factual (and i'm betting it isn't remotely factual, so please don't take any of this as speculation on what actually happened...)

If you think you might need a person to rescue your butt, then that person isn't some bystander who knows nothing about your plans, that person would be called a "safety diver" and would need to be part of your team and would dive and expect to meet you on the return and assist you.

The staff isn't a cave diving SWAT team whose job it is to put themselves in danger to try to rescue you when your badly planned dive goes sideways... They can choose to be good samaritans, but they have zero legal obligation to you, and every obligation to protect themselves.

And in Mexico the "staff" are just landowners who have a mud puddle in their backyard that gringos dive into, that whole argument makes me giggle thinking about implementing any of these ideas down there...

Cave diving isn't a little trail hike... There's no rescue helicopters going to come and get you if it gets dark and you get lost and cold...

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Finishing the quote has nothing to do with it. Peacock hasn't been blown out and there are 2 caves there that are regularly used for trimix training. In fact, I've been there a couple times in the past couple months for just that.

For one it was storming at those places too, weather channell radar is pretty good and can save you some driving. For another my instructor does not teach in pristine environments. We did one of the Wakulla area systems but he made us wait until we were fun diving. So whats your point anyway? Oh yeah, in a year and a half I have made three dives there. Two for Ben and one for class. Not one single fun dive there so I stand to my post.

I forgot about the paid dive for the tv show. I turned it down until they told me how much i would be paid. Still not one fun dive there in over 2 years.

 

[Grace67]

Did I miss something? Do we even know if this man was out of gas? There are other things that lead to someone not exiting a cave.

Reports from close family/friends are that he was stuck on something. Has anyone heard any details on just what that might have been?
This may be why Eduardo was not able to bring him back out Saturday. Larry might have really been hung up on something.

Questions in my mind these last couple of days... is 1200 feet in (like 4 football fields) normal for a dive?
Regardless of being stuck, did Larry go in too far with what gas some of you have estimated he probably had?
Could using a scooter make it (seems to me it would) easier to not realize how far in you have gone?
Does anyone know how small Vortex is at 1200?

 

[eternaljonah]

its always sad to hear someone has passed.
I've been following this post as well as other posts here on the accident form because its a great way to learn. but since i live in india i have no clue as to why is Vortex so dangerous. could some one please explain me shortly what makes Vortex more dangerous than other caves, thanks

 

[TSandM]

1200 feet is not even a particularly long distance back in many caves. I don't know Vortex at all. I have been at least twice that far underground, and I know people who have done normal recreational dives (meaning not the kind where you have to do setup dives and leave safety equipment in the cave beforehand) twice that long.

But penetration isn't all of what makes a cave dive risky. Even more important is the character of the passage. Caves which are shallow and open are "easy"; caves which go deep, get small, or contain a great deal of silt which can be disturbed and lower the visibility are riskier.

One of the things about cave diving, as has already been mentioned, is that cave dives are meticulously planned. I know how you plan your gas supply for scooter diving in a team, but I don't know how you do it for solo diving, unless you tow another scooter, and it doesn't sound as though Vortex is a place where one would do that.

 

[Garth]

So where his tanks empty?

 

[jwp8363]

I hesitate to get in this discussion because others far more qualified then myself are already putting some good information out here.

First, I do not trust anything the media says about diving or time frames. jwp8363 you keep mentioning the few statements that are reported and who knows if they are accurate, but even if they are accurate, you have to consider the facts that are not mentioned. If I was at Vortex unwinding after a day of diving, and someone came up to me and said that a diver was over due. If I saw the panic in a girlfriends eyes I would say the EXACT same thing that Eduardo did, "Don't worry, your boyfriend has plenty of gas with him." After she walked away I would begin aggressively working to find a way to check on the diver. We do not know if that is exactly what happened. The next mention the girlfriend makes is that after another hour she goes to report for the second time her concern. Where was Eduardo? She said in the water preparing to search. Doesn't sound like he just sat around doing nothing after her first report.

How long would it take me to get ready for a dive like Vortex to the back of the cave if I was not preparing to dive? Did he have the proper mix of tanks? Did he have to top tanks off and get his gear ready for this cave dive? Remember, Vortex is a dive that will kill you if not done properly. The fact that he was in the water when she went the second time tells me he acted after her first report. It would take me an hour to get ready for an Intro. dive, much less a dive like this one. What if Eduardo had been diving that day already, what if he had surface interval time yet needed before he could safely attempt a dive to 150 feet? Should he risk his life to try to reach someone that may already be out of air? You said you are a rescue diver. What is one of the basic rules of rescue diving.....don't let your actions cause there to be two victims.

The only reason for this message is your statement that "some of the blame should be taken by the shop." NO it shouldn't. There is no indication that the shop or Eduardo were a part of the divers original dive plan. We have no idea what was "really" going on after the first report was made. If nothing had been done as you suggest, then there is no way Eduardo would have been in the water when he was. I know people are struggling to understand and deal with all this. I know I certainly am. Larry and I took Intro.Cave together in 2009, and I hate this has happened to a nice guy like him. But I sure don't think with what little information we have now, that Eduardo should in anyway be publicaly called out for not acting when the facts to me just don't bear that out. I think he is to be commended for going in there that night and making the effort to find Larry. Kudos to Ed for yet again using his skills to recover a fellow diver.

Glen,

First off, I am truly sorry for the loss of your friend. I know I would be devastated if I lost a friend to an accident. And I will not post anything more on this subject on the forum. I also realize that the news report is probably screwed in various ways. But I was going by what the news report stated as I am not a cave diver and was not there. The news report (although may be wrong, or mis-quoted or whatever) stated that she went to eduardo once and told him of the missing diver. I understand the need for calming her fears at that time as to not get her upset. but the report then stated that she went to him an hour later and was told not to worry because he had several hours of air left (I think it stated 4 or 5 hours which does not make very much sense to me either). So, yes the report does not state that anything was or was not being done at that time, but since she could talk to him at that time again, he does not seem to be in the water searching as you have stated. it was not until a half hour later (according to the report) when she looked for him again, that she could not find him because he was in the water. I understand that there cannot be a "safety rescue station" set up at every cave, and you are right that shop does not have a legal responsibility to rescue someone or put theirselves in danger (rescue rule #1 dont put yourself in danger). I guesse that really have a problem with the way the report stated things happened. As you said, the report could be totally wrong and maybe Eduardo did do everything right. I was just running on the assumption that the shop that controls access to this spring (Larry Got the key to the gate from someone) that they would have some safety rules in place for scenerios like this. But cave diving is a whole different world of diving. I am sorry if I have upset you during this very sad time and I appologize.

Jeff

 

[Dive-aholic]

For one it was storming at those places too, weather channell radar is pretty good and can save you some driving. For another my instructor does not teach in pristine environments. We did one of the Wakulla area systems but he made us wait until we were fun diving. So whats your point anyway? Oh yeah, in a year and a half I have made three dives there. Two for Ben and one for class. Not one single fun dive there so I stand to my post.

I forgot about the paid dive for the tv show. I turned it down until they told me how much i would be paid. Still not one fun dive there in over 2 years.

Forget about the weather. That's irrelevant. The point is you posted you don't dive there yet you have. So don't blast Larry for diving there and state "when we don't dive there." It doesn't matter whether it was a 'fun' dive or not. I would do a 'fun' dive there before even considering a training dive there.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Forget about the weather. That's irrelevant. The point is you posted you don't dive there yet you have. So don't blast Larry for diving there and state "when we don't dive there." It doesn't matter whether it was a 'fun' dive or not. I would do a 'fun' dive there before even considering a training dive there.

Diving there for a class has nothing what so ever to do with what happened. Last time I checked I think YOU pick your students caves too. I didnt have a choice if i wanted to finish. If Larry had been in a class, or at JB ( his normal choice ) we would still be able to talk and laugh with him. So yeah, I can name quite a few people shocked that he was there. My last fun dive there was because for 5 months EVERYTHING in the panhandle except JB was blown due to floods so three of us went.