Vortex 3-18-2012

[Kevin Carlisle]

I for one appreciate you having safety suggestions but we have all we need. We do not need more regulations or governing in this. If you are afraid of it you shouldn't be doing it. Very few have died following the rules they we're taught.

thanks for the scenario Jax. I dont think my problem is with them having rescue gear on hand at every site. my problem with the whole thing is that nothing was even attempted to get organized until the girlfriend came back the second time and requested help again. That additional hour may not have made any difference at all, but it might have also. it would have given the search team an hour more time to try to get to the missing diver.

 

[Jax]

thanks for the scenario Jax. I dont think my problem is with them having rescue gear on hand at every site. my problem with the whole thing is that nothing was even attempted to get organized until the girlfriend came back the second time and requested help again. That additional hour may not have made any difference at all, but it might have also. it would have given the search team an hour more time to try to get to the missing diver.

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 PM ----------

and I am not saying that there has to be a stand-by rescue diver at every cave entrance. what i am saying is that when someone reports a missing diver, do not try to reassure them by saying that he is fine and dont worry and then not do anything for an additional hour.

One huge fallacy in what you are saying -- you are trusting that the news report is correct. We rarely find that to be true.

Also, angst can skew one's perception of time and events. Larry's GF could be misquoted, or just wrongly remembering.

 

[Dirty-Dog]

Since you would be in close prox to the line - no thick antenna would be needed - a VERY thin antenna could be imbedded in a line, making it VERY easy to cut.

How much would this magic line cost, and how do you plan to wrap 150m of it on a spool? How you plan to tie knots in it without breaking the wire?

Divers are responsible for their own safety. And perhaps you've forgotten, but the first rule you should have learned in Rescue is "don't make another victim".

 

[jwp8363]

I for one appreciate you having safety suggestions but we have all we need. We do not need more regulations or governing in this. If you are afraid of it you shouldn't be doing it. Very few have died following the rules they we're taught.

Kevin, I am NOT trying to say that you need more regulations or rules, but I would think that EVERYONE take missing diver scenerio very seriously and start the rescue or recovery organization as soon as possible. I do not know if Eduardo started immediatly or not, but given the news report statement it does not sound like he did. And it has nothing to do with being afraid of cave diving. I choose to not get trained to do it because it just does not hold a great interest for me, but I give full respect for those of you that choose to do it. but a missing diver report is a missing diver report. It does not matter if you are an OW, cave diver, or course director, a potential missing diver report is VERY serious and should be acted on IMMEDIATLY. If there are vol rescue divers available to help search for a missing diver, do not hinder the effort by not contacting them for an additional hour (unless that is what cave divers are taught).

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 PM ----------

One huge fallacy in what you are saying -- you are trusting that the news report is correct. We rarely find that to be true.

Also, angst can skew one's perception of time and events. Larry's GF could be misquoted, or just wrongly remembering.

Jax, I understand what you are saying in that the news report may be wrong. We will hopefully see what the real story was in the coming days, although I wont hold my breath on that.

 

[irishsquid]

...Also, angst can skew one's perception of time and events. Larry's GF could be misquoted, or just wrongly remembering.

Likely. It even states that the GF waited a half hour past the 1.5 hr return time before notifying Eduardo.

 

[Hetland]

That additional hour may not have made any difference at all, but it might have also. it would have given the search team an hour more time to try to get to the missing diver.

The math doesn't support that theory.

 

[DandyDon]

Likely. It even states that the GF waited a half hour past the 1.5 hr return time before notifying Eduardo.

Based on a news story. Maybe it took half an hour to find him? The rest of that story doesn't make senses either as I noted above.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Jwp8363 look at Hetlands post. He is correct. Larry didn't have enough gas for that time frame. He was most likely gone by quite some time. That depth eats gas quick. Add being narced and panicked and quadruple the consumption.

 

[manni-yunk]

Maybe this is over your head. When you are an established cave diver it will make more sense to you.

OK. Got it. Im not an established cave diver, therefore I could not possibly have input as to an idea that MIGHT save a life one day. I know the cave world is a secret society of super advanced highly trained divers where no one ever dies for anything other than diving out of their training.....but in reality......any technology we could provide that saves a life is worth discussing. The idea of an antenna and beacon signaling device is valid- even if cave divers are so trained that they should never need to use it.

---------- Post added at 10:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 PM ----------

How much would this magic line cost, and how do you plan to wrap 150m of it on a spool? How you plan to tie knots in it without breaking the wire?

Divers are responsible for their own safety. And perhaps you've forgotten, but the first rule you should have learned in Rescue is "don't make another victim".

not magic - Its really basic.

BTW - I already posted that the cost prohibitive nature of this, as well as the lack of marketability for profit is the biggest issue. Its an idea - and nothing else. It could be done - its really not hard.

---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 PM ----------

but then, who is responsible to go in and un-ass the diver in trouble? should we pay to have dive-police standing by at every diveable cave? who gets sued when someone doesn't go in to save a diver in trouble? who gets sued if the rescue is unsuccessful? who gets sued if the rescuer dies? what happens if there is a false alarm, are you going to reimburse the rescue divers for their time and expenses? what if someone dies during a false alarm? maybe all airplanes should have ejector seats installed for every passenger, that way, when a plane gets into trouble, everyone can self-rescue? maybe everyone who operates a motor vehicle should first take a breath test, wear 6-point restraints, helmets, and spine stabilizers?

I could go on.

All very good and valid questions - that have been figured out in ocean rescues, mountains, and other recreation industries. This really isnt rocket science.

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------

Your intent is good, but it's not a simple solution.

A long thin antenna running the entire length of the line may pick up a small signal from a diver mounted transponder (which would have a trade off between frequency low enough to punch a couple of meters through water and transponder antenna size, which increases as frequency goes down), however the electrical field generated in this hypothetical line antenna would be low since out would not be matched to the right frequency... This line antenna would then have to act as a transmission line to get the signal back to the surface. It would be a very Lossy transmission line, attenuating an already small signal to nothing in a very short time.

What you would have to do is have receiver units with their own antennas located at set intervals (dictated by the range the signal will make it through the water, which will be very small) but then you'd have to provide sufficient power and differential communication lines -an ethernet cable could work, but it would have to be a heavy duty OSP cable capable of staying submerged and under pressure -- and that's disregarding the high voltage you'd have to run through the line in the first place to get around line losses.

Cutting a thick, electrified cable underwater is about the last thing I'd want to do...

There may be a way, but it'll be far from simple....

But now we're just getting off topic.


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Very good points.

Im sure that engineers could come up with something with low voltage and appropriate frequencies. IF THERE was a real commercial market where a profit could be made after significant R and D costs - it would exist. Since its safety only - well likely never see it.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

What comes to mind is problem vs symptom and diminishing returns.

Alert systems might save a life but the problems that kill people tend to be caused by those people... We know what killed almost all people in a cave. We have accident analysis data going back years and years and we train people to know what these are.

An alert system would basically require a rescue team stationed at the surface ready to go. The vast majority of cave dives dont result in a single fatality or even an emergency. On many weekends I think hundreds of hours in a cave go by without issue. It would be a huge burden on diving to require an emergency team for every team in the water.

A better idea would be preparation for self rescue. Buddy bottles are easy to carry. When I do larger dives, or small caves, I often stage safety bottles in case of emergency. I also take it upon myself to set up safety people for larger dives who know my plan. But if I ever need them, I'm going to seriously consider giving up diving. It's just not something you can take lightly.

I do not think we need antennas. I think we need divers to dive safely and I think we have the data we need not do that.