Got my OW cert, but SOB!

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This is a very enlightening thread, that exploded with some interesting posts over the last 24 hours. It helps me, as an instructor, rethink how I do things, and what I should emphasize in training OW students. Personally, I find regulator recovery to be quite easy. But, then I practivce it a lot, every time I demonstrate it to OW studnets, when diving a 'conventional' regulator configuration. What this thread reminds me to do, in particular, is add emphasis and practice time to the tracing method. The sweep is easy, and relatively certain, IF the steps are properly performed (and they are frequently not), AND the second stage hose has not become looped back over the tank (which it occassionally does).

But, the thread also causes me to think about whether I should actively introduce all OW students to an alternate regulator configuration - long(er) primary hose and bungeed necklace alternate. I have not been doing that, but Maniago's comments, in fact, casue me to consider doing so.

I started diving a 'long primary hose, bungeed necklace alternate' configuration about a year after completing OW training. (I also moved to a BP/W configuration at the same time. I did (both) because I anticipated pursuing technical dive training in the future and wanted to begin preparing myself. But, what I found is that I very definitely prefer, for recreational diving, having my alternate second stage right below my mouth, where I can easily retrieve it, to address the exact situation that maniago found himself in. And, is it possible that your newbee-eyes have limited vision? Because, you DID go there - exactly there - albeit not because you were an unexpected donor, but because your regulator was knocked out of your mouth, and you could not find your primary or your alternate. That is not a criticism at all, in any way - you handled a difficult situation quite well, thought a lot about it afterward, solicited input, learned from it, etc, etc. But, because you suddenly found yourself without a second stage in your mouth, and your attempts to recover your primary second stage did not work, and you could not find your alternate, up you went. Is there a better way to avoid that? Here is a question:

As a newbee, what do YOU think would be the quickest, easiest way to retrieve a regulator to put back in your mouth, after your dive buddy has kicked it out?

1. Calmly lean (sharply) to your right, stick your right hand in front of you, elbow yourself in the ribs as you bring the arm back toward you, brush your butt with your right palm, stick your right arm out to the side and bring it forward, retrieve whatever hose(s) are captured in your elbow, and put the second stage in your mouth. (I am not being facetious with the terminology, by the way - that is actually how I teach it, for emphasis, to OW students 'elbow yourself', 'brush your butt', etc.)

2. Calmly take your left hand, lower it behind your back, find the bottom of the cylinder, push the cylinder up and to the right, reach over your shoulder with your right hand until you find the first stage, then trace one / two hoses from the first stage to a second stage, and put the second stage in your mouth.

3. Calmly take you right hand, reach immediately below your chin and retrieve the second stage resting there on a bungeed necklace, and put it in your mouth.

Ny point in asking the question is to encourage you, as a newbee, to not discard something because you are unfamiliar with it. You have thought through it, but have you really tried it? People with a lot more experience than you are saying, this is one possible solution - not the only one but definitely one of several. They have all been newbees at some point, don't assume they have forgotten what it is like. Some of them teach newbees regularly, don't assume they cannot relate. Don't assume something is way too complicated for a newbee, when in fact it may be a whole lot simpler and more straightforward than what you have been taught, simply because you have not tried it.

Having said that, your thoughts about practicing the tracing technique, etc., are spot on. And, yes, it would be great if OW training involved more time, and more dives. But, that isn't the reaility for what most people want in OW training, even if many of us, as instructors would welcome such a situation. So, consider your OW training as a license to begin learning how to dive, practice the skills that you began to develop (but, like the majority of OW students, probably didn't master the way you would have liked to), and be open to doing things differently than the way you were taught.
I'm just now starting to help with classes as a DMC so I'm far, far from an expert but I've thought about this a lot as I've also been making changes to my own gear recently to prepare for technical diving myself.
My plan is to use a regular ( ie what we see in the PADI pictures) configuration for the confined water classes so that I can do the demonstrations to students with the same configuration that they have with their rental gear. When we go to open water, I will have my bungeed secondary and long hose primary and show them how that works, so they will get and example of this as well.
This will of course be somewhat instructor dependent. Personally, I think that as common as this configuration is becoming, students should be at least familiarized with it so that they have somthing to base their own decisions off of when planning their own purchases of new gear.
 
My plan is to use a regular ( ie what we see in the PADI pictures) configuration for the confined water classes so that I can do the demonstrations to students with the same configuration that they have with their rental gear. When we go to open water, I will have my bungeed secondary and long hose primary and show them how that works, so they will get and example of this as well.
This will of course be somewhat instructor dependent. Personally, I think that as common as this configuration is becoming, students should be at least familiarized with it so that they have somthing to base their own decisions off of when planning their own purchases of new gear.

That's pretty much what I do. When I am in the classroom, I describe all the options a diver may encounter, explain the pros and cons of each, and I show them the equipment. In the pool, we use the standard equipment they are most likely to rent on a dive trip before they buy their own. In the OW, I use the long hose and bungied alternate and show them how it works.

A couple of years ago, there was a thread in the Instructor to Instructor forum in which someone wrote that he had been told by another instructor that using the long hose in PADI OW classes was a standards violation. Not believing it, I wrote to PADI. I was told in reply that PADI had no requirement for any specific setup at all. They also said that showing students all the possible options as I do is good practice.
 
That's what I call my ABC rule. Priority #1 : AIR, priority #2 : Buoyancy control, Priority #3: communication.
R..
This is a great way to encapsulate the key aspects of being a donor!
 
Rob (Diver0001) has been one of my favorite SB posters for the last 7 years . . . he has a fantastic way of breaking things down and making them logical. His thread on managing task loading is one of my all-time favorites.
 
This is a very enlightening thread, that exploded with some interesting posts over the last 24 hours.

Thank you for all your comments Colliam7 (I didn't quote it all for simplicity sake). This is exactly what I need to hear - calm, collected, intelligent, thought provoking - you get my drift :). Ahhh though, please, I'm not dissing anyone else who has posted - all are good and enlightening. I just thought that these comments were a great encapsulation of what's been bantered around, and wanted to acknowledge the effort to post.

That said, the best way not to lose a regulator is to....have a hole drilled in your head like the dolphins! haha :)
I'll re double my efforts to practice sweeping, tracing, and modifying my gear to be more fool proof. All three should make a future similar situation, for me I hope, a simple minor inconvenience vice a CESA. Cheers!
 
Next time you are in the water, try doing an air share ascent with your buddy on your main reg (and its short hose) while you breath off the octo. You're going to have to be VERY close to each other.

We do this often to practice skills. Yeah, you need to be close, but I didn't find it uncomfortable.... In fact, in OW class we were taught to grab each other's BC's with our right hand, on their right shoulder. So you are supposed to be close.

---------- Post Merged at 03:07 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:47 PM ----------

But, because you suddenly found yourself without a second stage in your mouth, and your attempts to recover your primary second stage did not work, and you could not find your alternate, up you went. Is there a better way to avoid that? Here is a question:

As a newbee, what do YOU think would be the quickest, easiest way to retrieve a regulator to put back in your mouth, after your dive buddy has kicked it out?

1. Calmly lean (sharply) to your right, stick your right hand in front of you, elbow yourself in the ribs as you bring the arm back toward you, brush your butt with your right palm, stick your right arm out to the side and bring it forward, retrieve whatever hose(s) are captured in your elbow, and put the second stage in your mouth. (I am not being facetious with the terminology, by the way - that is actually how I teach it, for emphasis, to OW students 'elbow yourself', 'brush your butt', etc.)

2. Calmly take your left hand, lower it behind your back, find the bottom of the cylinder, push the cylinder up and to the right, reach over your shoulder with your right hand until you find the first stage, then trace one / two hoses from the first stage to a second stage, and put the second stage in your mouth.

3. Calmly take you right hand, reach immediately below your chin and retrieve the second stage resting there on a bungeed necklace, and put it in your mouth.

The way I see it is that the problem fundamentally was that his alternate secondary wasn't attached properly - not where it was supposed to be attached, or the length of his hose. If you don't attach your bungee'd second stage (or attach sloppily and it falls out, or the necklace breaks mid-dive, etc.) you are in the EXACT same boat, so your scenario above isn't a fair comparison. Of COURSE finding your alternate air source will be easier when it's where it's supposed to be. If his had been attached to his BC like it should have been, he would have been fine. Necklace, nifty little holder thing on a shoulder D-ring, etc. Doesn't really matter, does it? As long as it's put there and checked that it's secure.

Isn't the real lesson here to make sure BOTH of your second stages are where they are supposed to be, and secured properly? Long hose, necklace, standard config.... Different discussion, no?

I'm not arguing the benefits for or against a long hose set up, just thinking out loud a little about the actual problem stated by the OP....
 
The way I see it is that the problem fundamentally was that his alternate secondary wasn't attached properly - not where it was supposed to be attached, or the length of his hose. If you don't attach your bungee'd second stage (or attach sloppily and it falls out, or the necklace breaks mid-dive, etc.) you are in the EXACT same boat, so your scenario above isn't a fair comparison. Of COURSE finding your alternate air source will be easier when it's where it's supposed to be. If his had been attached to his BC like it should have been, he would have been fine. Necklace, nifty little holder thing on a shoulder D-ring, etc. Doesn't really matter, does it? As long as it's put there and checked that it's secure.
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The problem is that the traditional alternate air source is designed to come off easily. That's the way it works. Because it is designed to come off easily, it does exactly that: come off easily. Back when I used one, it would come off almost every time I did a giant stride entry, even though I tried a number of different holders. I would often notice it had come off during a dive. When I work with students and we do the alternate air skill in the OW dives, I have learned to make sure the alternate is in place before we do the skills because it has so often been unattached in the past. Watch any group of OW divers and see how many octos are dangling.

In contrast, the bungied alternate is designed to stay attached, not to come off easily. I have never had one come off accidentally. I have never seen one come off a diving companion.

In short, an octo falling off and not being in the right place is a very common failure of the system. The bungied alternate coming off and not being in the right place is a rare event. You can't say that the two are equally reliable because they both can fall out of place.
 
The problem is that the traditional alternate air source is designed to come off easily. That's the way it works. Because it is designed to come off easily, it does exactly that: come off easily. Back when I used one, it would come off almost every time I did a giant stride entry, even though I tried a number of different holders. I would often notice it had come off during a dive. When I work with students and we do the alternate air skill in the OW dives, I have learned to make sure the alternate is in place before we do the skills because it has so often been unattached in the past. Watch any group of OW divers and see how many octos are dangling.

In contrast, the bungied alternate is designed to stay attached, not to come off easily. I have never had one come off accidentally. I have never seen one come off a diving companion.

In short, an octo falling off and not being in the right place is a very common failure of the system. The bungied alternate coming off and not being in the right place is a rare event. You can't say that the two are equally reliable because they both can fall out of place.

Ah, ok, then that does make total sense. I guess I've simply yet to have that happen to me, although I have seen dangling octos for sure. I thought the divers were just being lazy and not bothering to attach them in the first place (they weren't in my dive groups).
 
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