Ripped off for my AOW training

[Pullmyfinger]

I understand your point, but his issue was with the fact that he didn't feel he received any substantive training.

He should be taught the skills needed to plans and conduct dives that are considered "Advanced Open Water" dives, should he not?

That's really the whole point for me.....not the card.
It's more about if divers that take AOW, can plan and conduct Advanced Open Water dives for themselves upon completing these courses.

You should be able to pay you money and expect to receive training that allows you to do the dives.
The purpose of training is to allow you to begin doing the dives at that level.

Just like you driver's license example....it does allow you to begin driving.

I realize that taking an advanced open water course (different from an advanced course apparently), isn't going to instantly and magically transform you into an advanced diver.....but that course should be teaching the necessary skills to begin doing those dives.

 

[dive_turkey]

I understand your point, but his issue was with the fact that he didn't feel he received any substantive training.

He should be taught the skills needed to plans and conduct dives that are considered "Advanced Open Water" dives, should he not?

That's really the whole point for me.....not the card.
It's more about if divers that take AOW, can plan and conduct Advanced Open Water dives for themselves upon completing these courses.

Which he can do. I'm sure the OP can dive to 18m, I'm sure he can navigate in a square, and I even have a fair amount of confidence that he can do it all without getting bent. Now, I'm also willing to bet that before attempting a dive that requires a skill he is not fully sure of himself in, he will probably review the skill, ask questions, and seek other experienced guidance prior to attempting... which is the whole point.

The c-card is merely his permission to take on said challenges, not a gaurantee of success in them. That is always on the individual.

I'm not exactly sure off the top of my head how many certifications I carried in my previous position, but I know they all seemed redundant, and I never really felt having the card made me more qualified than not having it. Really, all any certification process has ever really accomplished for me, was to teach me "holy crap, I could easily kill myself doing this... I should be careful!"

 

[kwinter]

I might have missed this, but did the OP say what agency was involved? Even though it sounds like the instructor was skimping on training and lenient on passing, some of the agencies have very different attitudes toward advancement levels like AOW. Way back when (don't know if it has changed), SSI did not have a course for AOW at all. Their philosophy was that if you complete 5 specialties and 25 dives, you could be considered AOW. I don't remember how many or if any of the 5 specialties were specified. But I do remember liking the philosophy that basically said to expand your horizons and then dive more. You could be a PADI AOW diver with less than 10 dives total. SSI wanted more experience. And they wanted those experiences to be varied. I remember doing nitrox, drysuit, wreck, boat, night/limited vis, and navigation dives. And I absolutely did feel more "experienced" and better able to take care of myself on advanced dives and enjoy them more.

I always liked that SSI philosophy toward AOW training, even though it still sounds like a money grab.

 

[Traff]

I have just completed my Advanced course- and cannot speak highly enough about the instructor. I have been diving with this shop since I got my Open Water cert with another shop. On each occasion the new shop's team have provided advice, constructive criticism of my technique and have offered to concentrate on particular skills during a part of a dive. After about 10 dives with them I opted for the more formal training of the Advanced course. This involved a review of basic matters and then extended these through lengthy discussion and question and answer sessions, before and after each dive. The dives themselves were aimed at improving my skills as a diver and the course as a whole was well worth it. The deep dive was down to 33 metres (108 feet ?), there were two navigation dives at different sites, neither of which had been visited by me before, each involving navigating more than one route… Having read some of the above posts I feel even more lucky with my experience on the course. Once the water starts getting warmer here next year, I'll be doing the Master Scuba Diver course with the same shop and instructor- I've already signed up!

If anyone wants to dive in Korea, contact me and I'll give you the shop's details gladly.

 

[dmoore19]

Nice first post.

 

[Diver0001]

I just finished my AOW cert - something I've been looking forward to for a while. I have been diving for about two years and before the cert class had completed 25 dives - 5 in CA, 10 in the Maldives, and 10 in the Caribbean. I've been lucky to have had the opportunity to dive such great places.

My AOW cert was extremely underwhelming. Navigation dive was cursory, the "deep" dive went down to 62 feet, there was a "boat" dive that was nothing more than any other boat experience, and the fish identification was a joke. All of the other divers in my various dives were right out of OW cert and had no experience diving outside of a class setting. During the navigation dive, one of the divers even kept popping up to the surface due to his inability to control buoyancy...and he was still passed to the next level!!! Most appallingly, not once did a dive instructor instruct us to do a safety stop at the end of dives. Although most dives weren't deep, shouldn't a safety stop be SOP?

At $400 for this class I expected to learn more about being an effective diver and coming away with new skills. Sadly, I think this cert was pointless and I would have done better spending that money on recreation dives. I'm thinking about writing a bad review of the dive shop and even asking for a partial refund. Am I overreacting? Would appreciate your thoughts!

Oh man..... that sucks. It sounds like your instructor could have put way more effort into creating a challenge for you.

It also sounds like your instructors were accepting things that most wouldn't, like not repeating the navigation dive due to buoyancy control issues or by not making a safety stop at the end of the deep dive, which is required.

I would recommend two things to you.

First, do complain to the shop. Mention the way the deep dive was done and that the instructor did not do a SS. Point out that you've been informed that it's a standards violation and you believe you have a right to have the dive done according to standards and therefore you want that dive repeated free of charge. After all, you have a right to get what you paid for and you paid for a course conducted according to standards. That's probably the only concession you'll be able to negotiate from the shop on the merits of how the dives were conducted, at least from what I'm reading.

Secondly, write to PADI at the following email address. QM@PADI.COM. This is a direct line to PADI's quality assurance department. Go ahead and give them some feedback about how you found the course. There are two things here (1) that the course content itself is not challenging enough in your opinion and (2) that your instructor's delivery of the course was, in your view sloppy and turned it from a marginal into a negative experience.

They'll thank you and do nothing obvious, but PADI *does* pay attention to feedback given to their QA department and if enough people complain that the bar for AOW is too low, they *can* be persuaded to raise it or at least push instructors to use what's there to create more value, which, by the way, many instructors already do. For example, your feedback could prompt them to write an article in the UJ (a magazine specifically for PADI instructors and DM's) about how to teach AOW better. Anything you can give them that sounds like constructive criticism will help.

R..

 

[robertarak]

I just finished my AOW cert - something I've been looking forward to for a while......At $400 for this class I expected to learn more about being an effective diver and coming away with new skills. Sadly, I think this cert was pointless and I would have done better spending that money on recreation dives. I'm thinking about writing a bad review of the dive shop and even asking for a partial refund. Am I overreacting? Would appreciate your thoughts!

Many new divers use AOW as a way to have more dives while still being under the care and guidance of an instructor. It is a shame more instructors don’t use it as an opportunity to spend more time teaching students and refining skills. The dives are meant to introduce students to new skills, not have them master these skills. One of my AOW dives was Wreck. Once we got to the wreck my instructor had to point out that we were looking at a wreck. It took a second for me to see the wreck through the growth. Then BAM…it was magic. Today I am a very avid wreck diver and instructor. I did not learn the skills to be a wreck diver in AOW, I was just given the opportunity to experience it and decide if I wanted to pursue more training in that particular area.
For me and my students, gas management, dive planning, buoyancy / trim, and navigation are part of every AOW dive.

 

[SeaHorse81]

I have two AOW certs. The first was from PADI and did not "advance" my knowledge/skills in any meaningful way. I left the course, requirements accomplished, thinking, "That was it??" Total waste of $400.

Because the first AOW seemed to result in nothing more than loss of funds and the acquisition of a meaningless card, I took a later opportunity to take AOW again, this time through SEI (Jim Lapenta, here on SB). This time, I got to do lots of things that were entirely new skills. I felt like I worked and got challenged through the entire class, and felt personal satisfaction at having completed the course. Completely different experience. Partly it was due to differences in agency standards; mostly it was due to differences in instructor attitudes and values.

It really pays to do your homework on an individual instructor before you invest in a course. There are crappy instructors and brilliant instructors in every agency, I'm sure. It's up to the student/consumer to do the necessary homework to get a good deal. Unfortunately, most divers early in their careers don't know that, and just trust that they'll get a high level of service and instruction where ever they go. It's experiences like that of OP which show that the diving marketplace has all the frustrations, hazards and hidden gems of every other marketplace.

 

[Dive-aholic]

No, you didn't get ripped off. That sounds like most other Advanced Open Water course to me. It certainly sounds like mine, except I did Wreck, Deep, Dry Suit, Night, and Nav.

So you got ripped off too. Sorry, but just because it's more common to receive courses like this than not doesn't mean you aren't being ripped off. If you pay $400 for a course you should get instruction and training that is worth $400.

Unlike the name suggests, an Advanced Open Water certification doesn't make you an advanced diver. I end this post with this recommendation: Do Rescue Diver.

Research instructors for rescue diver as well. I've seen instructors stand at water's edge and read the cue cards verbatim to the students. The students then get in the water and run through the scenarios. Then there are instructors that run courses much differently. I take my students for dives and issues suddenly happen in which the students must respond and rescue the victim. I have never seen a diver during a pre-dive brief tell his buddy he was going to get lost or become unconscious during a dive. It just happens. Train the way things happen. Make sure you get an instructor that trains this way.

 

[RJP]

I stand corrected.

I suppose that I should clarify; although I am certain that you understood what I meant...

In reality, in most cases a reader can only be expected to understand what you wrote... not what you meant. It's unfair to expect people to have a correct understanding of an incorrect usage. (The fact that a great many people don't comprehend the straigforward difference between "infer" and "imply" notwithstanding.)

You've sort of proven my point, though. Words mean things, and when they are misused or misunderstood the result is confusion. (The fact that many people fail to comprehed the straightforward difference between "Advanced Diver" and "Advanced Open Water Diver" notwithstanding.)

For clarity, here's what the PADI website has to say about the Advanced Open Water Diver course:

Advanced Open Water Diver Course from PADI Professional Scuba Divers' Training Organization

Exploration, Excitement, Experiences. They’re what the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course is all about. And no, you don’t have to be “advanced” to take it – it’s designed so you can go straight into it after the PADI Open Water Diver course. The Advanced Open Water Diver course helps you increase your confidence and build your scuba skills so you can become more comfortable in the water. This is a great way to get more dives under your belt while continuing to learn under the supervision of your PADI Instructor. This course builds on what you’ve learned and develops new capabilities by introducing you to new activities and new ways to have fun scuba diving.

Anyone who expects to be an "Advanced Diver" after taking this course has only their poor reading comprehension skills - or lack of even cursory research - to blame.