Ripped off for my AOW training

[dfx]

Slight sense of deja-vu here...

For clarity, here's what the PADI website has to say about the Advanced Open Water Diver course:

Advanced Open Water Diver Course from PADI Professional Scuba Divers' Training Organization

Exploration, Excitement, Experiences. They’re what the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course is all about. And no, you don’t have to be “advanced” to take it – it’s designed so you can go straight into it after the PADI Open Water Diver course. The Advanced Open Water Diver course helps you increase your confidence and build your scuba skills so you can become more comfortable in the water. This is a great way to get more dives under your belt while continuing to learn under the supervision of your PADI Instructor. This course builds on what you’ve learned and develops new capabilities by introducing you to new activities and new ways to have fun scuba diving.

Nice, so this is basically them admitting that the course is named incorrectly. If the course isn't designed to make you an advanced anything in any sort of way, then it shouldn't be called that.

This whole "advanced diver != advanced open water diver" is nothing but a straw man argument.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Which he can do. I'm sure the OP can dive to 18m, I'm sure he can navigate in a square, and I even have a fair amount of confidence that he can do it all without getting bent. Now, I'm also willing to bet that before attempting a dive that requires a skill he is not fully sure of himself in, he will probably review the skill, ask questions, and seek other experienced guidance prior to attempting... which is the whole point.

The c-card is merely his permission to take on said challenges, not a gaurantee of success in them. That is always on the individual.

I would hope so, since he was already qualified to dive up to 18 meters before even taking the AOW class.
Which is one reason why he felt his training wasn't worthwhile.
His AOW class should have provided him some training and practical experience to allow him to plan and conduct his own diving after training to a depth of 30 meters.

Ideally this would include some training on gas planning, so he could factor that into his future dive plans on 30 meter dives.

The OP didn't mention whether or not he received that block of instruction.
I completely agree with you...success after training is up to the individual. It's a lot better, in my opinion, if they get the training they are paying for.

You hit on something that is probably a driving factor in the dive training today. What is the minimum that you can train divers to, and not have them get bent?

I'm sure the student that kept shooting up to the surface, and passed (they met the standard, so why not get a pass?)
Will go on to do plenty of dives after the class without incident......this thinking will just convince shops and instructors that are inclined to want to believe it....that these minimal classes are good enough.

Really...why should that instructor care if that student can stay down on a dive or not.....pass 'em anyway!
Why not? They can sell that guy gear, a nitrox class, peak performance buoyancy, maybe rescue.
Just keep feeding the machine, I guess.

It sucks....but that's kind of the way it appears sometimes. :depressed:

 

[tracydr]

You're not wrong. However, I would submit that these courses are exactly as they seem. A step-by-step money grab designed to build an industry as people progress through their chosen levels of dive proficiency. I suppose they also serve to limit liability here and there by putting responsibility on the individual diver. An example being my drysuit and EANx certifications. Now an organization can safely rent me dry equipment and fill my tanks with enriched air without being responsible for what happens below the surface because "I was certified."

Diving is a personal sport. Yes, you should have a buddy and be on a team, and that IS important. However, your comfort, proficiency, and even your knowledge is on you. Only you can obtain those things. It is helpful to have an instructor show you the ropes through the courses you pay for, but I would say it is equally if not more so beneficial to find a mentor and just learn on your own.
1) I don't read JUST the PADI books. There are dozens of titles out there which are all facinating reads and can advance your understanding of the underwater world far more than a "check the block" PADI course.
2) Use the forums, talk about experiences, read accident analysis', ask questions. Half the people here are either instructors themselves or have thousands of dives from which to draw knowledge.
3) Pay close attention to your own experiences and consciously learn from them. Take notes, write detailed dive logs, review them later or before a similar dive.

The point is, your class can be awesom with the right instructor, that much is true. However, it is more likely that your class will be little more than a price-hiked licensing fee and a few guided dives, which basically gives you the starting point to begin learning on your own.

I was lucky and had a close family friend as my basic instructor when I was a kid. My instructor for my advanced owns and runs the shop I dive out of, and will hopefully continue to dive with for the next few years. I think that contributes to the quality of the course, knowing that I will most likely be a loyal customer (and potential dive buddy) for a few years.

The point is, take it for what it's worth. I'm sorry you had a crumby experience, but don't let that be what limits your learning. Despite having good instructors, I still view my certifications as a PADI money-grab.

You may have nailed it when you mention that your instructors were either a friend or somebody you had a close business relationship with. Basically, they had the motivation to do a good job. My instructor for all my PADI classes except for OW has been my husband. I took AOW and Nitrox from him when we were first dating. I also had the advantage of having some private classes with him, so that they could be taught at my level. I had 10 years and about 200 dives worth of experience when I took AOW. And, I still felt it was a worthwhile class. Like TSandM says, there is the opportunity to teach many things in that class, but sadly, many instructors don't. My navigation pushed the limits of my ability at the time and I learned a lot of basic skills for better bouyancy, plus, just stuff that I had never known before that was still basic.just doing that many dives with a fully engaged instructor was worthwhile, for me. Unfortunately, it sounds like many instructors use this opportunity to make money on a class that is fairly easy to teach. I'm still amazed how much most dive shops charge for AOW. If you paid that much for a two day class from either GUE or UTD, you'd probably get your money's worth and be pretty sure that you could expect to.

 

[Colliam7]

My AOW cert was extremely underwhelming. Navigation dive was cursory, the "deep" dive went down to 62 feet, there was a "boat" dive that was nothing more than any other boat experience, and the fish identification was a joke. All of the other divers in my various dives were right out of OW cert and had no experience diving outside of a class setting. During the navigation dive, one of the divers even kept popping up to the surface due to his inability to control buoyancy...and he was still passed to the next level!!! Most appallingly, not once did a dive instructor instruct us to do a safety stop at the end of dives. Although most dives weren't deep, shouldn't a safety stop be SOP?

At $400 for this class I expected to learn more about being an effective diver and coming away with new skills. Sadly, I think this cert was pointless and I would have done better spending that money on recreation dives. I'm thinking about writing a bad review of the dive shop and even asking for a partial refund. Am I overreacting? Would appreciate your thoughts!

I don't necessarily think you are over-reacting. Certainly, there are usually two sides to every story, and we only have yours. But, taking your description at face value, I would probably have been a bit disappointed myself.

Unfortunately, the available evidence suggests that the quality of the AOW experience can be every bit as good as, or in a few cases every bit as poor as, the Instructor's abilities and motivation. Sad, but true. And, notwithstanding some agency-oriented chest thumping that goes on from time to time, that observation can be true across multiple agencies. It is unfortunate, but seems to be the reality. Broad statements that AOW is a waste, or useless, could probably in themselves be labelled a waste and generally useless, because they don't necessarily apply to all, most or even many, situations. Despite written standards and performance requirements that all competent agencies develop to assure quality, there are instances where an individual instructor does a poor job.

Four things in your post stood out for me:

1. I don't know what the certifying agency was in this case, and I won't try to speak for an agency other than PADI. But, one of the specific, explicit, written Performance Requirements for the PADI Deep Adventure dive (and you apparently did a Deep dive as part of the AOW) is, 'Make a safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet for at least three minutes.' It is required. If the certification was through PADI, and your statement as written is factual - 'not once did a dive instructor instruct us to do a safety stop at the end of dives' - I would go back to the shop, lodge a complaint about the instruction you received, and ask for a (partial) refund. I would also send an email to PADI training (training@padi.com) to point out what happened, identifying the shop and the Instructor. That part sounds harsh, but the only way any certification agency can correct problems is to be made aware of them to begin with. Complaining on ScubaBoard may make you feel better, and we are probably all happy to pile on with armchair criticism of what apparently took place, but it does nothing to correct the situation.

2. You mention 4 dives (Deep, Navigation, Boat, and Fish Identification). What was the 5th dive, out of curiosity (again, presuming this may have been a PADI course, where 5 dives are required)?

3. When you say, 'Navigation dive was cursory', what did you actually do as part of the navigation dive?

4. AOW, at least in the PADI world, is a course that ideally should be tailored to the students enrolled. While many students are similar to some of your classmates - 'All of the other divers in my various dives were right out of OW cert' - it is not uncommon to have a student with considerable experience. For example, I had a student in an AOW course last summer whose deepest dive prior to the class was 122 feet. Taking her on a dive to 62 feet might seem silly. But, the class gave me the opportunity to work with her on things such as a) nailing her buoyancy during the safety stop - not just making a 3 minute stop but setting a tight target for her vertical deviation while doing it, and measuring how well she did staying inside the narrow window. b) on deploying a second stage from the gas bottle staged at 15 feet, and c) working on good horizontal trim during her descent and ascent. These are not necessarily performance requirements. But, she and I discussed before the class what would be goals - meaningful to her - to accomplish, and these happened to be three things, among a longer list, that she wanted to work on.

The point is, a capable instructor can make the AOW course a valuable learning experience for the diver fresh out of OW, or the diver with a more experience - in both cases meeting the performance requirements, and in both cases helping the student diver continue to develop his/her skills.

 

[spc751]

Unfortunately sometimes we have to be ripped off before we learn to look for something better. I did padi aow after just a few dives and found it the be very good at my skill level. Of course I did not take Fish i.d and expect it to make me an advanced diver. I agree with the people that say that the padi aow is not an advanced diver course. It is just a little more advanced than ow. It gives a few more skills early in your diving career that you can practice to become an advance diver.

SSI claims that their aow is better because it requires four specialty courses (not 5) and only one can be a non-diving course (add rescue to become a MD). I did SSI drysuit expecting to learn some tips on diving dry. The course was 90 minutes doing summersaults in the pool and a 10 question multiple choice exam. No dives because I had already done a few dives in a drysuit. I did not think it was a very good course. A dive buddy took Deep diver from the same shop. All it required was a multiple choice exam and producing his computer and log book to prove that he had been deeper than 100 feet on two dives. He was very happy that he got his SSI Deep Diver card without "wasting" his time diving with an instructor.

When I was ready for a Deep course I looked around and found a padi RecTec instructor that I liked. It was an excellent course (4 dives with the instructor and several hours of theory) and went well beyond the standards.

A lot people only want a card and a lot of instructors are willing to just provide a card. If you are like me and want real training you have to look for an instructor who provides real training.

 

[RJP]

Slight sense of deja-vu here...


Nice, so this is basically them admitting that the course is named incorrectly. If the course isn't designed to make you an advanced anything in any sort of way, then it shouldn't be called that.

This whole "advanced diver != advanced open water diver" is nothing but a straw man argument.

Where have you seen the term "Advanced Diver" used anywhere, other than by people who can't - or won't - read the actual name of the course?

 

[Pullmyfinger]

In reality, in most cases a reader can only be expected to understand what you wrote... not what you meant. It's unfair to expect people to have a correct understanding of an incorrect usage. (The fact that a great many people don't comprehend the straigforward difference between "infer" and "imply" notwithstanding.)

You've sort of proven my point, though. Words mean things, and when they are misused or misunderstood the result is confusion. (The fact that many people fail to comprehed the straightforward difference between "Advanced Diver" and "Advanced Open Water Diver" notwithstanding.)

For clarity, here's what the PADI website has to say about the Advanced Open Water Diver course:

Advanced Open Water Diver Course from PADI Professional Scuba Divers' Training Organization

Exploration, Excitement, Experiences. They’re what the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course is all about. And no, you don’t have to be “advanced” to take it – it’s designed so you can go straight into it after the PADI Open Water Diver course. The Advanced Open Water Diver course helps you increase your confidence and build your scuba skills so you can become more comfortable in the water. This is a great way to get more dives under your belt while continuing to learn under the supervision of your PADI Instructor. This course builds on what you’ve learned and develops new capabilities by introducing you to new activities and new ways to have fun scuba diving.

Anyone who expects to be an "Advanced Diver" after taking this course has only their poor reading comprehension skills - or lack of even cursory research - to blame.

Without citing the PADI description, which I've never seen displayed in a dive shop when advertising their upcoming advanced classes, along with other specialties.......what would you say are the "straightforward" differences between "Advanced Diver" and "Advanced Open Water Diver"?

So PADI even calls this "Exploration"....how cool!:cool2: That sound kind of advanced.

Of course their description states that you don't need to be "advanced" to take the course. Why do you imagine they make it a point to mention that specifically. What is that telling the reader?.......you don't need to be an advanced diver to begin the course..............because.......???

I am experiencing reading comprehension issues lately, so I'm hoping some light could be shed on this.

Dude, you know exactly what is being sold with the name of the class.....and you know full well what isn't being delivered.

you can shout from the mountain top all you want....."You fools....we told you is was 'Advanced Open Water'....and NOT 'Advanced Diver'", whenever someone questions the course. Dive shops and Instructors pitch that course as a damn advanced course....it's marketed that way.

you can dig around and look for chapter, sub-section, paragraph whatever for the obscure course description. But most divers, after completing their OW class are going to walk into the shop and ask for the class their OW Instructor likely mentioned repeatedly during class, which was.......wait for it........the "Advanced Class".

When the go to the counter with cash in hand asking for the Advanced class.....is the guy at the counter going to say.

"Wait a minute......it isn't actually and 'advanced class'. You see, what it really is, is an 'Advanced Open Water class'.
Hold on a second let me explain: It's actually not even advanced at all. What it actually is, is Exploration, Excitement, Experiences. They’re what the PADI Advanced Open Water Diver course is all about. And no, you don’t have to be “advanced” to take it – it’s designed so you can go straight into it after the PADI Open Water Diver course. The Advanced Open Water Diver course helps you increase your confidence and build your scuba skills so you can become more comfortable in the water. This is a great way to get more dives under your belt while continuing to learn under the supervision of your PADI Instructor. This course builds on what you’ve learned and develops new capabilities by introducing you to new activities and new ways to have fun scuba diving. Do you still want to sign up?"

The diver says....."uhhhh, yeah sure. I'd like to sign up for the Exploration, excitement, and experience dives then."
"Can I sign up for the 'Advanced class' after that?"

 

[Insta-Gator]

The core of the problem, IMNSHO. Expectations versus reality. When you (general "you", not personal "you") got your driver's license, did that make you into a fully qualified driver? Not? So why would you (again the general "you", not the personal "you") expect that a C-card makes you into a fully qualified diver?

Why don't people realize that a C-card is... just a card? It's not a magic charm, it's just documentation that you've passed some minimum amount of training and should be able to go dive without seriously harming yourself or someone else, just like a driver's license. It is not a proof of your superior qualifications.

Myself, I realize that C-cards are just cards. My OW card makes sure my LDS will fill my tanks and that a vacation operator allows me to rent equipment, and my AOW card makes sure the same vacation operator allows me to dive beyond 18m/60ft and/or on walls without a hard bottom at 18m/60ft. It's up to me to decide whether or not I consider it safe, given my skills and experience. My C-cards leave it to me, not some guide - or cattle driver - to decide what is within my limits and what is outside my limits. The courses gave me the basics, my subsequent diving gave me the experience and developed my skills to whatever they are now. Maybe that's why I didn't feel ripped off when I was handed my AOW card¹ - even though I might have a thing or two to say about the depth of the curriculum...

"Here's your 500€, now give me my competence" seems to be an ever-growing mindset in this world, be it diving, schools, Universities, or whatever where people attend to obtain qualifications. Fewer and fewer people seem to realize that obtaining skills or knowledge isn't for free and that you gotta work for it yourself. Sigh.

And don't get me started on the impact of guided diving on skills development!
</rant>

¹ Which, incidentally, cost me about 200&#8364;

I completely disagree. A C-card is supposed to represent one's completion of a certain level of training. Training is not just sitting in the classroom and answering "present" when the role is taken. I don't hand around OW classes but in my experience I've only seen one person not receive their OW card, even though I thought there were several who should not have. My AOW class was a joke and a huge waste of money. For anyone wanting to take AOW, do it after the minimum requisite number of dives. If you wait years and hundreds of dives later to take the AOW class you will be extremely disappointed. But, there is, IMO, an obligation on the part of the instructor and the certifying agency to ensure you fully grasp the skills presented and can competently demonstrate them in the water. Going through the motions is not demonstrating a skill, it's responding "present."

The industry must be terrified of losing business or scaring away new students because the word gets out that instructor XYZ is too hard or may not issue the new card. Well, for my money I would prefer an instructor who looks the student in the eye and says, "You're not ready." That would actually make achieving a newer level of card valuable.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Where have you seen the term "Advanced Diver" used anywhere, other than by people who can't - or won't - read the actual name of the course?

You're kidding, right?
I hear it all the time in dive shops. When signing up for certain dives, the ones deeper that 6o ft.
the people in the dive shop will say...."You must be an "Advanced Diver" to sign up for these dives."

I don't know RJP....but that's the commonly used language. You're going to pretend that you have never heard any dive shop staff, anywhere, ever use the term "Advanced Diver"??

When a diver wants to be able to sign up for those advance boat dives, how does he or she do that? They have to be an "Advanced Diver"......using the VERY commonly used term....how does one actually become and "Advanced Diver", RJP.

This is just a crazy, far out guess.....a total shot in the dark......but on this planet......you have to take the course that is written in the PADI material as "Advanced Open Water".........but is commonly referred to verbally by most dive shop personnel that I've ever heard mention it, as well as other divers...as the "Advanced Class".

Once you complete the "Advanced class"......or "Advanced Open Water class", you can then sign up for the.......ding, ding, ding!!!.....you guessed it boys and girls......and you too RJP..........you can sign up for the "Advanced dives"......because............you are (here it comes....get ready) an "Advanced Diver."

That was tedious.

Word games......you love to play them.

 

[supergaijin]

Wow- never saw this coming...

Some people like to drop the word 'advanced' when they describe themselves.That is sometimes used as an abbreviation of AOW- sometimes they like to think of themselves as 'advanced'. Most are not IME.

Some instructors talk about 'Advanced' as a class following the OW. It is a sales pitch. I for one am not surprised that certain companies use marketing techniques. I try to avoid them- or at least see them coming.

For example I am a tad skeptical of the 'skin-whitening soap' that is often sold in this part of the world. That doesn't seem to prevent million dollar sales though. I am also not sold on diving equipment recommendations through magazines- it's a farce and if you do a little research you can spot a pattern.

All that said... sometimes I have to correct myself when I talk about the AOW course. I do try to talk about the realistic results after 5 extra adventure dives with an instructor. If an individual can only hear what they want to hear however..... well, there's an interesting email I received from Nigeria the other day...