Exploring some back-up / redundancy options… thoughts?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Flots, I agree, if your computer, AI, or SPG dies, head for the surface. But having 2 different algorithms means you have 1 telling you to ascend while the other telling you you still have time. Lets say you choose to follow the less conservative one, you possibly have a backup computer that has now locked you out for violating you NDL.

Some numbers based on 30 meters for 20 minutes:
Padi: Safety stop required
ZHL-16b 30/85: 4 Stops required 9 minutes deco
VPM-B 0: 3 Stops 9 minutes deco
VPM-B +2: 3 Stops 13 minutes deco

At least I can calculate those, make it RGBM and it's FM.
 
That's not what was happening. I can hazard some guesses as what was actually happening, but.

I am not sure to what is referred above…? Go ahead and guess, I want to know what happened too.


"There is no way to answer completely in this basic forum, but suffice it to say this: Those assumptions are incorrect. Because it is expected that algorithms can and will generate significantly different NDLs on a given set of repetitive no-stop dives. That fact is the reason to carry computer of different algorithms. To carry only one algorithm is to lose info, even if one has a redundant computer."




I am at a loss to understand your statement above. The advantage of having two IDENTICAL computers running the same algorithm is that the inputed data will be identical on any given dive so the computer generated dive profiles should result in identical NDL, safety stops and dive times etc.

This assumes the sensors are working equally well in both computers.

The result of the computations should be the same given the same data variables entered. If not, then one computer is not functioning correctly.

In my mind, the value of a redundant computer system is safety and convenience. Given a complete or catastrophic failure of one computer - say a flooded unit - the failure will not result having to abort the dive. Who want to abort a dive especially if one traveled to an exotic and costly place? Also, if one aborts a dive, then their dive buddy loses out too.

Finally, your repetitive dive data will be maintained by the functional computer and allow a diver to continue with more dives the same day.





But then again I may be wrong ….and a bit off my head…..

Garv
 
Last edited:
... but not impossible situations when the diver might accidentally incur a small deco obligation during a recreational dive, and where it would be really helpful to have access to decompression information.

The problem here is really much bigger than a failed computer, isn't it?

I don't understand what kind of backup is being talked about here. Is it 1)A backup so that you can continue to dive after primary fails?? or 2)A back up that you can still monitor your depth and time, so that you can abort the dive safely?

I hope it is 2. And to do that, all you need is a depth gauge and timer, so that you can make the safe ascent, do safety stop is desired. So it should really be a computer set to gauge mode. The problem with two computers is that what is the backup show you a drastic different information. Say your primary says you are still within NDL right before it fails, but you back up is in deco mode. Will you follow the back up and complete the deco?? At least for Oceanic/Aeris recreation computer, their deco mode gives ridiculous stop depth and time. I am not so sure that is the right way to do deco at all.
 
The backup might very well be there in order to let you continue to dive after a primary failure, e.g., on a liveaboard trip. Without it, a primary failure would have you sitting out perhaps 24 hours and 4-5 dives before continuing on with a borrowed computer.
 
The problem here is really much bigger than a failed computer, isn't it? I don't understand what kind of backup is being talked about here. Is it 1)A backup so that you can continue to dive after primary fails?? or 2)A back up that you can still monitor your depth and time, so that you can abort the dive safely? I hope it is 2. And to do that, all you need is a depth gauge and timer, so that you can make the safe ascent, do safety stop is desired.

Hmmm, I am not sure what you think I may have implied, but I believe we are saying the same thing here... the point I was making in the larger paragraph, from which you have taken this quote, is that a person needs to be able to execute a safe ascent, ideally with the help of an appropriate time and depth measuring device to ensure proper ascent rates, maintain proper stop depth, etc.

So it should really be a computer set to gauge mode. The problem with two computers is that what is the backup show you a drastic different information. Say your primary says you are still within NDL right before it fails, but you back up is in deco mode. Will you follow the back up and complete the deco?? At least for Oceanic/Aeris recreation computer, their deco mode gives ridiculous stop depth and time.

You should not have allowed any of your computers, whether backup or primary, to go into deco mode in the first place (on a recreational dive), and the more conservative computer should have been the primary. Throughout the dive, you would have been following the information provided by the least aggressive among all your computers, and the dive plan that has been prepared beforehand, hence in the case of a failure, what you would be left with is the (possibly) more aggressive bailout schedule (which, of course, shouldn't really contain any deco stops to begin with). If you are not willing to stay within the limits computed by your backup, then I agree that there is no point pretending that it is anything more than a bottom timer, and you might as well set it to gauge mode at this point.

I am not so sure that is the right way to do deco at all.

Of course it is not, a recreational diver on a single tank should not even go anywhere near deco, which requires technical training and redundancy, and all divers regardless of training or redundancy should plan their dives, and dive their plans...

Unfortunately, many divers push their limits, and ride their computers up to the NDL, which is very easy on a 100-130 foot dive, especially if someone is going to get narced. If a diver is going to ride their computer (which of course they shouldn't), then they better have a fully functioning backup that can get them out of trouble safely... if the skills are lacking, or if someone refuses to improve their skills, and yet they continue to make aggressive near-NDL dives to 130 feet (which of course they shouldn't), having an equipment solution to the problem (backup comnputer, or at least a bottom timer and tables) still seems to be the lesser evil. Then again, of course, the better way to go would be to abstain from making these sorts of dives if a diver finds herself repeatedly cutting it close, and take up proper training ASAP.
 
Last edited:
Here is an article explaining why my assumptions above were erroneous. Tip o' the hat to my friend the math teacher!

It explains the numerous factors any particular algorithm has to handle, and why the outputs will vary widely.

Scuba Diving - New Jersey & Long Island New York - dive Wreck Valley - Gear & Training - Decompression Theory

I am glad you found a well written article, and then linked it back for others. Quoting a bit to address the reasoning for using two computer with different algorithms:

!quote
[h=2]Modern Ideas[/h]The reality is that we will never get truly accurate decompression tables or computers. The chaotic nature of our own physiology means a certain amount of conservatism will be required. The best we can generally hope for are ones that work most of the time, for most people. It is highly likely that current tables are much too conservative for some individuals, while being overly liberal for others.

/!quote

I extend the reasoning that day to day any given diver needs different levels of conservatism to reduce risk. FOr me persoanlly, as daily working diver, regardless of where I might otherwise be in the range, I am absolutely at the outside risk for getting bent doing recreational dives even without exceeding limits. I want all the info I can use, and I want several opinions, and to choose the most conservative opinion.

I also wear two to three computers because unlike non working divers, I can't end the dive when when a computer dies, or skip out on repetitive dives after a dive computer failure. I have to end it when the customers stop diving, and I have to follow their 'plan' such as it is a plan.






---------- Post added June 21st, 2014 at 09:39 AM ----------

You should not have allowed any of your computers, whether backup or primary, to go into deco mode in the first place (on a recreational dive), and the more conservative computer should have been the primary.

Though everything in you post is great points, I will take a little issue with this one.

Other than the weird old Suunto's going into deco way, way earlier, there is no really a conservative/non conservative split on which computer will give the least time remaining. There is an algorithm split that varies from daily profile to profile as to which one will be giving the least time at any given time.
 
Though everything in you post is great points, I will take a little issue with this one. Other than the weird old Suunto's going into deco way, way earlier, there is no really a conservative/non conservative split on which computer will give the least time remaining. There is an algorithm split that varies from daily profile to profile as to which one will be giving the least time at any given time.

You are absolutely right, I stand corrected... the computer that "controls" should be the more conservative / less aggressive at the moment. Thank you for pointing it out.
 
I carry two computers. A Suunto Gekko and a Dive Rite Nitek plus. I follow the Gekko for my recreational dives and generally ignore the Nitek, it is only there if I were to have a problem with the Gekko. For recreational diving there is no reason, short of an failure/emergency, divers should go into deco. Follow your training.

For my technical dives I use prepared tables with the Nitek as backup to those and the Gekko acts as a bottom timer.

Sent via flying butt monkie using Tapatalk 2
 

Back
Top Bottom