Sidemount and helmets in open water

[Razorista]

btw:
My two closest sidemount capable cave divers are perfect examples:
One does not wear a helmet and does not like his students wearing one even long after taking training with him.
The other does not admit being a cave diver in polite conversation and likes to shock and awe people with his own helmet.

 

[nakatomi]

Nope, I have some experience in getting information about local cave and cavern training opportunities.

There are no virtually no caverns or caves open to the public in Germany. All that exists for the masses is mine diving which, in my humble opinion, is not entirely comparable to cave diving. And I don't see your point anyway. Your argument was that there are cave sidemount instructors who disallow their SM students the use of a helmet. Which I have never heard and would believe is pretty much unthinkable.
A helmet in sidemount is a personal choice and it's up to each individual to decide.

Finding a cave instructor proficient in sidemount is next to impossible.

First of all the point is moot as there are no caves in Germany.
Apart from that there are cave instructors even in Germany who are proficient in sidemount. And there certainly are quite a few in other European countries and within 4-5 hours of flying/driving from where you live.

My two closest sidemount capable cave divers are perfect examples:
One does not wear a helmet and does not like his students wearing one even long after taking training with him.
The other does not admit being a cave diver in polite conversation and likes to shock and awe people with his own helmet.

If your friend is a cave instructor and not allowing his sidemount students to wear a helmet, he's essentially disallowing them to make a personal choice that affects their own safety.
Now he could kindly ask them not to use any helmet mounted lights for the class, but why forbid the use of a helmet in SM? That's just ridiculous.
As to your other friend who shocks people and puts them in awe of his wonderful helmet, does that actually work? I wonder if it helps to impress women? I might even get a helmet myself and scratch it up for show

 

[tbone1004]

and the SF2 is not being used in active cave exploration here.... You see a helluva lot more Kiss Sidekicks over here and "low-riders" than you do SF2's. Hell, I can't safely dive an SF2 because I'd essentially be diving an SCR if I wasn't on a scooter....

 

[Razorista]

There are no virtually no caverns or caves open to the public in Germany. All that exists for the masses is mine diving which, in my humble opinion, is not entirely comparable to cave diving. And I don't see your point anyway. Your argument was that there are cave sidemount instructors who disallow their SM students the use of a helmet. Which I have never heard and would believe pretty much unthinkable.
A helmet in sidemount is a personal choice and it's up to each individual to decide.

You are quite right.
But I was not contradicting anything of that anyway.

First of all the point is moot as there are no caves in Germany.

Two officially, I think, a few others I know of, none allowed to be used for training of any kind, yes.

Apart from that there are cave instructors even in Germany who are proficient in sidemount. And there certainly are quite a few in other European countries and within 4-5 hours of flying/driving from where you live.

Yes, the there certainly are. I do not travel much, however.
Cave training is expensive and not being able to practice it locally makes certification (almost) useless.

If your friend is a cave instructor and not allowing his sidemount students to wear a helmet, he's essentially disallowing them to make a personal choice that affects their own safety.

In training?
I would doubt his judgment if he thought I needed a helmet for protection when training with him/her.

Now he could kindly ask them not to use any helmet mounted lights for the class, but why forbid the use of a helmet in SM?

In cave and cavern training, that includes sidemount.

That's just ridiculous.

It's the way it works.
Instructors rarely show flexibility in regard to their 'rules'.

As to your other friend who shocks people and puts them in awe of his wonderful helmet, does that actually work?

Worked on me, when he introduced himself to me telling me about his 10 sidemount open water dives and showing of his helmet.
He somehow forgot about a few thousand other dives, most of them sidemount, many of them trimix.
I still do not know 'officially' to this day if he is a cave instructor or even certified as a cave diver.

I wonder if it helps to impress women?

Since his has attachments to turn it into a Hello Kitty styled helmet, yes, it does

I might even get a helmet myself and scratch it up for show

Would be more funny if there weren't people who actually do things like that...

 

[nakatomi]

In training?
I would doubt his judgment if he thought I needed a helmet for protection when training with him/her.

If you take the class in sidemount, chances are that your head will make impact with the cave. It can happen, especially during the air sharing lights out drills. A 5mm+ hood should offer enough protection but if someone prefers a helmet that's his personal choice and not a bad one.

Instructors rarely show flexibility in regard to their 'rules'.

Actually I couldn't even come up with an instructor who has any such instructor rule. Usually it's the agencies standards that count and none of them forbid the use of a helmet.

 

[Razorista]

If you take the class in sidemount, chances are that your head will make impact with the cave.

Which is 'not allowed' in cavern classes and disliked by many (small time) cave instructors - don't touch.

It can happen, especially during the air sharing lights out drills.

Most would call that 'very bad training', if you try to discuss it that way.

A 5mm+ hood should offer enough protection but if someone prefers a helmet that's his personal choice and not a bad one.

Tec divers here do not dive with 5mm hoods, as you very well know. 10mm Waterproof H1 is almost standard, with occasional Santi and Dui 11mm or layered hoods.
I am sure mine offer more protection than my helmet.

Actually I couldn't even come up with an instructor who has any such instructor rule

Most instructor think it to be part of training to give advice and react badly if that advice is not taken or is discussed.

Usually it's the agencies standards that count and none of them forbid the use of a helmet

I am not even interested to know.
But: Doing It Right (scuba diving) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Patoux01]

Doing It Right (scuba diving) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're not even trying...

 

[nakatomi]

What does DIR have to do with sidemount? Nothing. You mentioned DIR earlier in the thread and I already answered that. You don't need a helmet in backmount because usually, assuming horizontal trim, the tanks or manifold and valves hit the ceiliing first, not the head.

As to not making contact with the cave in training sure, that's what you try to avoid doing. But when you can't see at all and need to exit in touch contact or search for the line, the risk of hitting something is very real. And when you can't see in a vertical or diagonal passage or in restrictions, chances of hitting something are high. Keep in mind that you only have two hands and need to stay in touch contact with your buddy or hold on to the reg hose if you are the OOA recipient plus you need to hold on to the line and use one hand to feel the cave and protect your head. And of course you need to do that while moving at a moderate speed.
In my trainingI hit my head and tanks more than once.
As to the hood, I said 5mm+ which means anything better or equal 5mm will offer some protection.

 

[The Chairman]

My two closest sidemount capable cave divers

Either you've got weird friends: find new ones.

or

You're misrepresenting them like you do the people in this thread. Either way, it's time to unsubscribe to this thread. Have fun.

 

[Razorista]

Either you've got weird friends:

Oh yes, of course.

find new ones.

I cannot follow that logic. Isn't it the other way round?