Why the red and white "Diver down" flag?

[Sam Miller III]

Check with Sunday after noon foot ball players...

 

[Storker]

you will note I have been involved in diving probably before your grand parents were born.

Unless you're at least a quarter of a century older than JYC, that'd be more than a tad impressive

 

[2airishuman]

The alpha flag is also the official flag/sign in the US. It's used by the US Navy etc. The red/white flag does not have any official meaning at all.

The red and white flag is required by law in most state waters and so it does indeed have official meaning. Few if any states recognize the "alpha" flag as a valid substitute. Most diving in the U.S. is in waters that are under state jurisdiction.

 

[2airishuman]

The main problem is that you can just get on a boat and drive with no training. So most boaters probably don't know what either flag means. That might earn the FWC a tiny sum if they ticket someone but it isn't really helping safety. The other problem is that the fines are so trivial, and boat owners tend to be financially well off. Most boat owners would probably not really care much about the fine.

There's more boat ownership per capita in Minnesota than any other state.

The problem here is that the dive flag is way down the list of the state's boating education and enforcement priorities, which are roughly:
1. Drunk boaters.
2. Invasive species.
3. Availability and use of PFDs.
4. Boorish behavior in high-traffic areas, speed, noise, harassment of wildlife, etc.
5. Erosion problems caused by excessive wake.
6. Fee evasion, particularly out-of-state visitors who don't buy fishing licenses.
7. Routine violations of fishing regulations, especially size minimums and maximums and use of multiple lines or multiple hooks per line (both lawful in many other jurisdictions but not here)
8. Right of way rules

So we have a situation here where the only thing the dive flag law is used for is a way for law enforcement to harass divers.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

The 1972 International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea and the United States Inland Navigation Rules provide for an elaborate series of day-shapes and lights to be displayed by large vessels whose maneuverability is restricted by the conduct of underwater operations, such as cable-laying, dredging, or conducting diving operations. Smaller vessels that are not able to hoist the complex signals used by large ships are instead required to display a rigid version of the International Code of Signals flag for the letter "A," known as ALFA, at least one meter high if diving operations restrict their ability to maneuver. Not all boats from which divers are swimming are necessarily so restricted. Generally, only vessels to which the divers are physically connected by communication lines, air hoses, or the like are affected by this requirement. It does not apply to most instances of sport diving, where the divers are swimming free of the vessel. As recent Coast Guard Notices to Mariners emphasize: "The ALFA flag is a navigational signal intended to protect the vessel from collision."

By contrast, the red and white diver-down flag, originally devised in about 1957, is intended to protect divers themselves. This flag is often referred to as unofficial or voluntary because it is not mandated by the international or inland rules of the road. This assertion is erroneous. The use of the diver down flag is required by state law or regulation in virtually every state of the Union, as well as by various Federal agencies exercising jurisdiction over waters where diving takes place (such as the National Park Service) and by the Canadian Occupational Safety and Health Regulation. Typically, the laws or regulations on the use of this flag require divers to display the flag and to remain within a specified distance of it when they are near the surface. This often means the flag is best mounted on a float or buoy near the actual dive point rather than on the boat itself. Restrictions vary from state to state, but typically include a zone around the flag where no other boats are allowed and a second, larger zone in which their speed is limited. A number of states also prohibit the display of the diver-down flag when a diver is not actually in the water.

 

[kelemvor]

There's more boat ownership per capita in Minnesota than any other state.

The problem here is that the dive flag is way down the list of the state's boating education and enforcement priorities, which are roughly:
1. Drunk boaters.
2. Invasive species.
3. Availability and use of PFDs.
4. Boorish behavior in high-traffic areas, speed, noise, harassment of wildlife, etc.
5. Erosion problems caused by excessive wake.
6. Fee evasion, particularly out-of-state visitors who don't buy fishing licenses.
7. Routine violations of fishing regulations, especially size minimums and maximums and use of multiple lines or multiple hooks per line (both lawful in many other jurisdictions but not here)
8. Right of way rules

So we have a situation here where the only thing the dive flag law is used for is a way for law enforcement to harass divers.

That seems to be a result of Minnesota having a much smaller population than Florida. There are more boats in Florida than Minnesota overall

Those are all valid problems. However, since the penalty for violating the dive flag law is laughably small it is also an important factor. Other than wanting to not hurt another person, there is no incentive for a boater to bother with following the law. The time it takes for the boater to get pulled over and receive a citation is probably a worse penalty than the fine. If boaters were looking at say.. $1,000 first offense, 10 days in jail for second? I bet a lot more folks would know about the law... and that wouldn't require law enforcement to put any extra effort into the situation - it would all fall on the legislators.. and courts, I guess. I bet it would get extra effort, though... fines are big business. I'm not proud to say that my home state has more than one town which claim traffic citations as their main source of income.

The 1972 International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea and the United States Inland Navigation Rules provide for an elaborate series of day-shapes and lights to be displayed by large vessels whose maneuverability is restricted by the conduct of underwater operations, such as cable-laying, dredging, or conducting diving operations. Smaller vessels that are not able to hoist the complex signals used by large ships are instead required to display a rigid version of the International Code of Signals flag for the letter "A," known as ALFA, at least one meter high if diving operations restrict their ability to maneuver. Not all boats from which divers are swimming are necessarily so restricted. Generally, only vessels to which the divers are physically connected by communication lines, air hoses, or the like are affected by this requirement. It does not apply to most instances of sport diving, where the divers are swimming free of the vessel. As recent Coast Guard Notices to Mariners emphasize: "The ALFA flag is a navigational signal intended to protect the vessel from collision."

By contrast, the red and white diver-down flag, originally devised in about 1957, is intended to protect divers themselves. This flag is often referred to as unofficial or voluntary because it is not mandated by the international or inland rules of the road. This assertion is erroneous. The use of the diver down flag is required by state law or regulation in virtually every state of the Union, as well as by various Federal agencies exercising jurisdiction over waters where diving takes place (such as the National Park Service) and by the Canadian Occupational Safety and Health Regulation. Typically, the laws or regulations on the use of this flag require divers to display the flag and to remain within a specified distance of it when they are near the surface. This often means the flag is best mounted on a float or buoy near the actual dive point rather than on the boat itself. Restrictions vary from state to state, but typically include a zone around the flag where no other boats are allowed and a second, larger zone in which their speed is limited. A number of states also prohibit the display of the diver-down flag when a diver is not actually in the water.

That's enlightening, thanks for sharing!

 

[Storker]

The red and white flag is required by law in most state waters and so it does indeed have official meaning. Few if any states recognize the "alpha" flag as a valid substitute. Most diving in the U.S. is in waters that are under state jurisdiction.

Which kind of is the core of my question, since the rest of the world - except Italy - use the A flag, as prescribed by the IMO.

 

[Bert van den Berg]

Boaters in New Zealand are just as uneducated as boaters in the rest of the world. No license or testing required to buy and operate a boat so the dive flag on a float is just as likely to be a curiosity to "check out" by zooming up to it.

The wife and I don't normally use a dive flag on a float when scuba diving. We'll display the blue/white flag off the spreader of our sailboat when diving nearby the boat. We display the blue/white flag on our dinghy when diving away from the boat.

When using the hookah (surface supplied air), we fly both the red/white and blue/white flag of the air intake staff of the floating compressor. We fly both because the red/white flag came with the hookah, which was purchased from the USA.

No proof but I believe that the color red is more likely to be interpreted as a sign of danger to most people than the blue color.

 

[kelemvor]

The 1972 International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea and the United States Inland Navigation Rules provide for an elaborate series of day-shapes and lights to be displayed by large vessels whose maneuverability is restricted by the conduct of underwater operations, such as cable-laying, dredging, or conducting diving operations. Smaller vessels that are not able to hoist the complex signals used by large ships are instead required to display a rigid version of the International Code of Signals flag for the letter "A," known as ALFA, at least one meter high if diving operations restrict their ability to maneuver. Not all boats from which divers are swimming are necessarily so restricted. Generally, only vessels to which the divers are physically connected by communication lines, air hoses, or the like are affected by this requirement. It does not apply to most instances of sport diving, where the divers are swimming free of the vessel. As recent Coast Guard Notices to Mariners emphasize: "The ALFA flag is a navigational signal intended to protect the vessel from collision."

By contrast, the red and white diver-down flag, originally devised in about 1957, is intended to protect divers themselves. This flag is often referred to as unofficial or voluntary because it is not mandated by the international or inland rules of the road. This assertion is erroneous. The use of the diver down flag is required by state law or regulation in virtually every state of the Union, as well as by various Federal agencies exercising jurisdiction over waters where diving takes place (such as the National Park Service) and by the Canadian Occupational Safety and Health Regulation. Typically, the laws or regulations on the use of this flag require divers to display the flag and to remain within a specified distance of it when they are near the surface. This often means the flag is best mounted on a float or buoy near the actual dive point rather than on the boat itself. Restrictions vary from state to state, but typically include a zone around the flag where no other boats are allowed and a second, larger zone in which their speed is limited. A number of states also prohibit the display of the diver-down flag when a diver is not actually in the water.

I just noticed the date difference. So, the red/white flag predates the blue/white flag by 10 years.

You or @Sam Miller III should consider authoring a updating the wikipedia article on the topic.

 

[The Chairman]

The red and white flag is required by law in most state waters and so it does indeed have official meaning.

I'm not sure if it's required by most states, but Florida leads the way in having the best law on the books. The problem is one with consistency. It's hard to get it right 50 times... there should be one set of requirements.

The Alpha flag is a Coast Guard thing and intended for commercial diving operations.