Dangerous divers, redux

[Bubblesong]

. I will however do my utmost to stay away from you while I dive.

Please do.

 

[CT-Rich]

Granted, but is it something you want to happen? It may not be an emergency, but it can create one. Accidents happen, but seeing bad behavior that creates bad situations… well, I commend you for having more patience for it than me.

Agreed. And it’s probably a good reason to carry a second mask on every dive. I carry enough luggage, and don’t carry a spare mask. If someone doesn’t see it go off and it isn’t returned, then there goes the dive. This is not my main concern, but it would upset me to lose a dive because of someone’s unnecessary, erratic behavior.

To me, a CO2 cartridge as part of the BCD is dangerous gear. Do you stop to think why they discontinued the BCD and no one else picked up on the idea? I have no problem with old gear. My fins were bought on eBay. I would much rather see a diver with older, maintained gear, than new gear. All new gear suggests a brand new diver. But that’s just me being judgmental. And, this guy was not new. He had been to CZM diving ten years ago and his previous dive was a week before this one.

Now this really cracks me up. You’re judging me for judging another diver’s skills and asking how to handle it. What does that say about you? I mean, other than not being able to recognize irony

Judge not, lest ye be judged...

I have never lost a mask mid-dive, it does not happen. There was a thread on the topic a week or so ago in the Advanced Forum. I do keep extra masks in my kit because they do get dropped overboard or crushed or forgotten.

The CO2 cartridges are extremely safe and were very widely used in their day. They aren’t used anymore because LP power inflators make them unnecessary.

MAYBE I would find this other diver annoying. If I did, I would avoid him. It was annoying for one or two dives. Don’t let this guy get under your skin.

It reminds me of story I heard about diving the Andrea Doria. Loud mouth guy talks smack all the way out to the wreck. Gets in the water and sinks like a stone (his air was off and went totally negative). They fetch his body and bring him back on board. They take a vote and decide to not report the death until after they’ve finished their dives.

The moral of the story?
A) Don’t let jerks ruin your diving.
B) Don’t be the guy whose death they vote to not report...

 

[AfterDark]

Releasing a CO2 cartridge deeper than 25 ft will have little affect. They also need a good pull to trigger, especially when rusty

I don't get why snorkeling vests don't have CO2 inflators these days?

I am sure this has been done to death, but this post has a nuance or two.

Most of us on the boat had dived together at least one or two times before. But..., there was a new guy. His gear looked older, so you might think he knew what he was doing. In fact, most looked downright vintage. His reg was a Poseidon CyKlon, which he claimed was recently serviced. His BCD appeared to be a SeaTec Manta, with the CO2 canister attached. I don't know what his fins were, but they appeared newish.

Almost as soon as we left the boat, he was in trouble. He lost a fin during descent. I am almost certain that his backstrap spring connectors require an "insert and twist" technique to keep them in place. I think he just forced it into place. Once at depth, his arms were all over the place. There was no predicting how he would move. There were erratic breast strokes, combined with fluttering and just spastic movements. He had two redeeming qualities. The first was that he blew through his air quickly, and let us enjoy about 25% - 35% of the dive. His other quality was also a curse. Since he was not with anyone, he stuck by us. We didn't want him around us, but he was smart enough to know that he shouldn't be alone.

It would have bothered me a little bit, but we had a young diver with us that we were quite protective of. Watching this guy was a learning experience for the young diver, most of all. But, for me, I have to wonder if I should have said something during the SI. He was up first. I was up second, but not a lot of time to make comments in private. The dad of the 13 year old didn't provide any criticism, but I told the youngster to stay away from him on the next dive. The 13 year old already knew what I was talking about, and stayed away.

So..., should I have instantly said something when I got on deck when we were alone?? Should I have relied on the dive master to say something? What do you do when you encounter a diving spaz?

Solo diving.

 

[The Chairman]

I would be very nervous about releasing a CO2 cartridge into a BCD at depth.

It's been common practice for decades to keep a used cartridge in place.

When one puts a post on public forum looking for vindication veiled by asking for advice,

Wow. You got all that out of the OP? Are you a mind reader or just like leaping to conclusions without any evidence? Post and let post.

Judge not, lest ye be judged...

Maybe more like "Dive and let dive"?

To the topic: I am not the Scuba police. I keep my insights to myself unless asked. It's OK to be horrified at how others dive but don't ruin their dive over it. I would use this as a teachable moment for your young protege. But really: dive and let dive.
Also, I've taught paraplegics and double amputees how to dive. They have to swim with their arms since they have no legs, and I will set the example when I'm with them.

My impact on other divers is mostly through my example. I am flat, don't move very fast and find all the cool stuff. It's not unusual for others to come up to me between dives and ask how I do that. Then I don't mind sharing. If they're too clueless to see a difference, then they're probably a waste of my time and breath anyway.

 

[Zef]

Wow. You got all that out of the OP? Are you a mind reader or just like leaping to conclusions without any evidence? Post and let post.

Leaping takes too much energy, so I choose mind reader.

Here is the breakdown as I see it:

1. OP asked for advice about a scenario he witnessed/was affected by.
2. Advice was given.
3, OP did not just disagree with the advice but disputed the advice....therefore one can reasonably assume he was not looking for advice but instead looking for agreement that he handled the situation well.
4. In addition, the OP continued to characterize the other diver as a danger to others by drawing on worst case scenarios that did not happen while at the same time characterized his own actions in the water as only endangering himself and seemingly expressed that was ok because it did not affect anyone else.
5. More advice was given by other members of the board indicating the OP's might want to reflect more about what he/she could personally do to help the situation as opposed to just being critical of the diver that he posted about.
6. OP continued to dispute that his perspective is correct by continuing to cite that the other diver was all colors of dangerous.

You might think that I jumped to conclusions and I will accept that badge if I need to, but the responses by the OP seems to really fit well with the definition of "seeking vindication".

I have found that often when a discussion starts out with an expression along the lines of "what do you think...." there is often little interest in what others think and instead is used more as a polite way for the person posing the question to segway into stating what they think.

Had the OP just presented the scenario, it would have been one thing, but they solicited advice and then wanted to dispute the advice...to me that is a bit disingenuous. I accept that calling that out may make me come across as an a-hole, and if I need to I will wear that badge as well..but in my eyes the OP has given no quarter to the diver they posted about, why should he be immune to similar criticism?

There frequently seems to be posts in the "beginner" forum that elicit deeper discussion / sharing of ideas than the friendly green zone nature of this forum is designed for. Perhaps this whole discussion and other deeper topics started here should be moved, or perhaps we as a community should tolerate the candid and raw discussion that a topic such as this deserves.


-Z

 

[Snoweman]

It's been common practice for decades to keep a used cartridge in place.

The end of the cartridge looked like it had a little rust on it. This could be the case.

 

[RayfromTX]

I dive frequently in Boynton Beach, FL. None of the operators put a DM in the water. I usually dive solo, but occasionally volunteer to take another diver or small group when they are clearly unfamiliar with the area, new to drift diving, or otherwise would seem to benefit from a little assistance to get off to a good start.

I dived with a young married couple visiting from DC, each had less than 20 dives, the husband a few more than his wife. On the first dive, the woman had a lot of problems. She started underweighted and could not descend, I got her some more weight from the boat. Soon after descending, she lost one of her weight pockets and started to cork. I grabbed her and her weight pocket. By this time, the current had dragged us very far off the reef and we had a relatively long swim back, doubt they would have found it. About half way through the dive, her tank came out of her BC and I replaced it. The man did OK on the dive but I don't think he had the extra bandwidth to have been able to effectively deal with all the problems that came up. The rest of the dive was uneventful but both used up their gas pretty quickly. I ascended, did the safety stop, and surfaced with them. I descended and finished my dive when the boat came to pick them up. We discussed the first dive and plans for the second dive during the surface interval.

The second dive was much better, no problems. They ascended on the flag by themselves. They thanked me for the help at the end of the trip and we went our separate ways. The next day, by chance, I ran into the couple underwater, diving from a different boat. They were with another couple, looked very comfortable, and the man was carrying the flag! They saw me, gave me an enthusiastic OK, and we went our separate ways again.

I've had many experiences similar to this one. Sometimes it's very gratifying to help new, inexperienced, or less skilled divers

Love this!

 

[tr3a]

I don't get why snorkeling vests don't have CO2 inflators these days?

For snorkeling it would work fine I would think.
For diving, well..... Back in the day for check out dives an emergency ascent from 30ft was reqd. We would first fire off the CO2 cartridge. Then when nothing happened drop weights. Was a good demonstration not to rely on the lift from a 16 gram cartridge. The rich people had the Frenzy (fenzy)


Solo diving.

 

[The Chairman]

2. Advice was given.

I didn't find the advice that compelling but rather more confrontational. Maybe that makes me "unreasonable", but I believe I felt a good bit of his angst whilst reading the thread.

but instead looking for agreement that he handled the situation well.

Except that he didn't do anything.

the OP continued to characterize the other diver as a danger to others

False vividness is a phenomenon of the internet. I can't tell you how many times I've been told that I was going to die over the years. It's my humble opinion they really thought that to be true. For many, if you don't dive the way they do, then you are about to be a statistic. Meh. Dive and let Dive. I usually just slowly swim away from stupid divers. It's a fairly large ocean and I know a number of escape routes.

Diving has changed over the years. I have just completed my 49th year of diving without serious incident. My first set of fins were sold to me with the caveat that I could kick the crap out of the reef and not hurt the fin. Think about that for a moment. Many instructors are teaching the way they did 49 years ago with little to no emphasis on protecting the environment. Of course, many oldtimers see the past with rose-colored glasses and will tell you how dumbed down current training has become. No. It's just different. Dive and let Dive.

 

[CT-Rich]

I don't get why snorkeling vests don't have CO2 inflators these days?.

I triggered one at the end of the season years ago, they’re filled with dry ice. It took five minutes or more to inflate. I could have drown and be reincarnated in the amount of time it would take for the BCD to inflate and produce enough boyuancy to stay at the surface.

If you need to be boyuant drop your weights or bring something to read, the cartridges are damn slow.