Uncertified Scoundrels Teaching the Public to Dive in Libya

[KeithG]

I think we're in vehement agreement about what's going on.

It is my view that this is part and parcel of 3rd world countries with weak rule of law. If you look around you'll find it's just as true in other disciplines there. Once they have bona fide doctors, judges, engineers, dentists, veterinarians, lab techs, teachers, etc., they can have a go at the dive instructors.

I disagree. I claim that once again the scuba world is a little too full of itself. This sport is not special. Instructors are not "professionals". They are merely paid to train.

The OP has already established that no laws are being broken (well actually we have established there are no laws!). There is no fraud occurring either.

Note, most of the problem isn't coming from certified instructors selling c-cards to fake instructors or to consumers without training, it is actually mostly uncertified individuals selling "training" and not give anything or simply give a home-made certificate.

So let's forget about scuba and think "koolaid" instead (and yes I know this is a horrible example since most modern places have food safety laws that likely extend to koolaid...)

What we really have here is some kid down the block is selling koolaid for less than I charge for my koolaid that I can guarantee is awesome koolaid since I buy my mix from McKoolaid. How dare they sell koolaid!

No laws, no regulations, no foul.

That said most things do have well know best practices. Their koolaid may be poisonous. OR maybe it is way more awesome than mine?

 

[BoltSnap]

I just noticed that this thread was moved to the "Africa and the Middle East" forum. I wish the MOD put a comment stating why.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

The scuba industry in the US is unregulated. However, if there was a fake instructor in the US giving out C-cards (real or not) then I’m going to guess that those C-cards are invalid since they were not issued by a legitimate instructor. At that point it becomes fraud and the “regulated by authority” part comes in when a police report gets filed. Then we’re going to court.

 

[Searcaigh]

I just noticed that this thread was moved to the "Africa and the Middle East" forum. I wish the MOD put a comment stating why.

Where was it originally ?

 

[BoltSnap]

Where was it originally ?

"Basic..." forum.

 

[Tom Winters]

I read the initial page of this thread but could not face 7 more pages of political weigh-ins.
I wouldn’t label all these Libyan con men and scammers as “Uncertified scoundrels”...I’m sure many of them are very fine people...
But geez Louise...teaching scuba in Libya. That sounds like the premise to a potentially funny movie.

 

[kelemvor]

The obvious first point is that this is a false analogy. Guitar students to not get certifications that tell music operators that they have the skill to do life-threatening activities.

But let's accept it for now.

You seem to be arguing that there is no point to scuba certifications that have an agency's backing. It could be like when my cousin learned to dive in the early 1960s, when the salesman at the sporting goods store where he bought his gear gave him a 5-minute talk about how to use it.

Are you arguing that trained instruction is unnecessary in modern scuba?

As far as I know you don't need a scuba certification to scuba dive in the USA. Some shops expect you to have one before they'll sell you an air fill. Some boats expect one before you can charter the boat. If you have never taken a class and want to shore dive (or dive from your own boat) with air you filled yourself? Well, there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's a perfect analogy.

 

[boulderjohn]

As far as I know you don't need a scuba certification to scuba dive in the USA. Some shops expect you to have one before they'll sell you an air fill. Some boats expect one before you can charter the boat. If you have never taken a class and want to shore dive (or dive from your own boat) with air you filled yourself? Well, there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's a perfect analogy.

I don't think we are using the word "unnecessary" in the same way. You are using it as meaning there is no legal requirement. I am using it to mean that training is necessary for safe diving, regardless of any legal requirements.

History is full of cases of savants learning to play the guitar without formal training. Terry Kath of Chicago was truly one of the greatest lead guitarists in rock music history, and he not only had no training, he had surprisingly little practice--he was primarily a bass guitarist before he played lead for Chicago. (He had no training for bass, either.) On the other hand, there are probably many thousands of people who also tried to learn to play guitar without training and got absolutely nowhere. We don't know about them, though, because when they got nowhere, it did not make the papers.

It is also possible, like my cousin, to learn to dive without any true instruction. On the other hand, some people really do need it, and they need instruction from a competent instructor. For example, a couple weeks ago a father took his 10-year old son diving without any training. We know about it because his death made the papers.

If I am going to run a dive operation and take people diving, I am going to want to have some assurance that the person I am taking on the dive is not going to jump off the boat and drown, putting me into a lawsuit.

 

[kelemvor]

I don't think we are using the word "unnecessary" in the same way. You are using it as meaning there is no legal requirement. I am using it to mean that training is necessary for safe diving, regardless of any legal requirements.

History is full of cases of savants learning to play the guitar without formal training. Terry Kath of Chicago was truly one of the greatest lead guitarists in rock music history, and he not only had no training, he had surprisingly little practice--he was primarily a bass guitarist before he played lead for Chicago. (He had no training for bass, either.) On the other hand, there are probably many thousands of people who also tried to learn to play guitar without training and got absolutely nowhere. We don't know about them, though, because when they got nowhere, it did not make the papers.

It is also possible, like my cousin, to learn to dive without any true instruction. On the other hand, some people really do need it, and they need instruction from a competent instructor. For example, a couple weeks ago a father took his 10-year old son diving without any training. We know about it because his death made the papers.

If I am going to run a dive operation and take people diving, I am going to want to have some assurance that the person I am taking on the dive is not going to jump off the boat and drown, putting me into a lawsuit.

I was thinking of it more from the perspective that the OP shared. That the other Libyan instructors are con men because they don't pay a certification agency. Just like in the US, I bet Libya has no such requirement in order to teach scuba. Nor should it in my opinion. If these guys have some shady arrangement where they are issuing agency cards that they aren't really affiliated with then that's a civil matter between the student, instructor, and agency. That's in the realm of con/fraud, but not the instruction its-self. Regardless of the quality of that instruction.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the instruction sucked. There are plenty of totally legit dues paying instructors in the USA who suck if SB posts are to be believed. On the other hand, if scubaboard posts are to be believed, there are many self taught divers in the world who have lived to old age. None of those guys sound like savants to me when they post.

I'm not saying instruction is useless, just that is is not required. I'm glad I got the instruction I have received. I would do it again, and will undoubtedly pay for more instruction over the years.

I tried scuba (using unserviced gear that was like 30 years old) before I even met my first instructor. A friend loaned me the gear so I could fix a problem in my pool. Other than "don't hold your breath while ascending" and "don't drown/run out of air" there wasn't much to it. I think he also told me to ascend slower than my smallest bubble or something like that.

 

[Attonine]

As an aside, 2 days ago I received a telephone call from HR in the oil company I worked in until evacuation in 2014. They want me back in 45 days!

Good news, it means conditions are improving on the ground. Still not a holiday destination though.

I hope this time the authorities can keep a lid on the pressure cooker and things get sorted out. Libya will be a fantastic destination one day, it has so much to offer tourism wise. More archeology than its neighbours and miles and miles of unspoilt beaches. I know there’s so,e diving around Tripoli, but no idea what it’s like. Should be some wreck diving at both Tripoli and Benghazi, and a few of the terminals now though.


If they get the visa issued with no problem, I should be flying in end of August.