Current Status of Fill Station Owned/Operated by Stathis

[DandyDon]

So you are saying they are in fact safer, but nobody needs to be that safe?

Nope, not at all. I said "I do not think that I know more about diving theory than the training agencies or DAN, not do I think that Suunto does, so I feel perfectly safe diving Oceanics - which give similar results as Padi dive tables. Suuntos are a marketing gimmick based on so called "safer diving" thru penalizing bottom time erroneously - no science or medical theory involved. They probably even use three word chants at rallies, but I am guessing there."

 

[yle]

No, "we" don't. When you say "we" are you talking about yourself? Because most people I know dive nitrox to extend bottom time and when you do that, if you've set your computer to your mix, you are approaching the same NDL and same nitrogen loading as when diving air.

We haven't had this argument on the Coz board in so long. I missed it. So if I dove air and was forced up by a lack of bottom time or instead I switched to nitrox and was forced up by a lack of gas with plenty of bottom time left, would that not indicated that on the second dive I ended with less nitrogen loading which would indicate a higher margin of safety?

Chief, you're proposing a hypothetical. Reefhound was expressing what he sees actually happening. Your hypothetical scenario could certainly happen, but that doesn't mean what Reefhound described doesn't happen.

 

[yle]

Suuntos are a marketing gimmick based on so called "safer diving" thru penalizing bottom time erroneously - no science or medical theory involved. They probably even use three word chants at rallies, but I am guessing there."

I'm going to disagree with you there. I've been using a Suunto (still use my D4 that I bought in 2008) for much longer than most people that bash Suuntos, so my opinion is based on a lot of direct experience. My RMV is pretty low, usually between 0.36 and 0.40 cu ft/min, and on typical dives my Suunto gives me enough bottom time to effectively use most of my available gas (so I'm finishing a typical dive with around 700 psi.)

If I was given additional bottom time by a less conservative computer, I would need to improve my RMV to take advantage.

My D4 has spent 500 hours underwater with me (with zero problems) and I've had zero DCS incidents, which, for me, is the most important feature of a dive computer.

 

[cvchief]

Chief, you're proposing a hypothetical. Reefhound was expressing what he sees actually happening. Your hypothetical scenario could certainly happen, but that doesn't mean what Reefhound described doesn't happen.

Not at all. I am proposing what actually happens. His hypothetical is all divers who run out of bottom time at 50 minutes, have enough air left to get to 90 minutes (Nitrox NDL) if they had more BT. I am saying most will run out of gas between 50 and 90 minutes (of course those are random times)

When dives are limited by BT, the diver comes up with max nitrogen loading.

The diver switched to nitrox, to extend bottom time.

Now with extended BT, the diver is usually limited by available gas and comes up with BT remaining, hence the nitrogen load is LESS than maximum.

He can't use all the extra bottom time, so he ends with less nitrogen on a longer dive.

I see lots of people run out of BT on air. Not on nitrox.

Heck this is me. On air, I consistently went up because I was out of BT. Now I always dive nitrox and I rarely get close to the end of my bottom time.

 

[cvchief]

Nope, not at all. I said "I do not think that I know more about diving theory than the training agencies or DAN, not do I think that Suunto does, so I feel perfectly safe diving Oceanics - which give similar results as Padi dive tables. Suuntos are a marketing gimmick based on so called "safer diving" thru penalizing bottom time erroneously - no science or medical theory involved. They probably even use three word chants at rallies, but I am guessing there."

So PADI says what is safe enough for rec diving. We agree on that?

Do we also agree that some people get bent anyway on those table?

So for whatever reason, the table are not a 100% guarantee.

So keeping your nitrogen loading even lower than that tables must make it less likely to get a hit?

Hence it is safer.

Just because it isnt YOUR science, doesn't mean its wrong. Its ok really. You can admit less nitrogen is safer. The world wont end.

Suunto RGBM Dive Algorithms

 

[JohnnyC]

So what's the status of the current fill station owned and operated by Stathis?

 

[cvchief]

So what's the status of the current fill station owned and operated by Stathis?

Who? What?

 

[Manatee Diver]

I'm going to disagree with you there. I've been using a Suunto (still use my D4 that I bought in 2008) for much longer than most people that bash Suuntos, so my opinion is based on a lot of direct experience. My RMV is pretty low, usually between 0.36 and 0.40 cu ft/min, and on typical dives my Suunto gives me enough bottom time to effectively use most of my available gas (so I'm finishing a typical dive with around 700 psi.)

If I was given additional bottom time by a less conservative computer, I would need to improve my RMV to take advantage.

My D4 has spent 500 hours underwater with me (with zero problems) and I've had zero DCS incidents, which, for me, is the most important feature of a dive computer.

Except you aren't disagreeing with his point, simply that for your uses the algorithm doesn't hinder the type of diving that you do, not that the algorithm is based on solid technical and empirical foundation.

Personally I found that the Suunto computers can be very liberal on the first dive, and very conservative on the follow up dives, as bubble model algorithms often add a conservatism factor for ascents. As an example on dives in the 100-120 fsw (30-35 meters) range the Suunto will have 10 minutes or more BT on the first dive, and have 10 minutes or less bottom time on the subsequent dives compared to Buhlmann computer with an upper GF of 85%. I saw this first hand when I dove the Suunto side by side with my Teric, and I saw it last week when I had to tell the DM that I needed to ascend during the first dive, but on the third dive the DM almost went into deco because he was down to 1 minutes while I had something like 10 minutes left on my Terics.

 

[MaxE]

And further what is the cost of an air fill and nitrox fill at the Stathis station?

 

[yle]

Except you aren't disagreeing with his point, simply that for your uses the algorithm doesn't hinder the type of diving that you do, not that the algorithm is based on solid technical and empirical foundation.

Dan said: "Suuntos are a marketing gimmick based on so called "safer diving" thru penalizing bottom time erroneously - no science or medical theory involved."

I disagreed with his statements "Suuntos are a marketing gimmick" and "no science... involved."

The "marketing gimmick" is Dan's opinion. I have a different opinion. We disagree.

As for the "no science involved"... unfortunately the primary type of science for DCS studies is empirical evidence through a lot of data collection and interpretation of that data. In my post I provided my own small contribution to that data set, using my Suunto computer. While it is Dan's belief that Suunto uses no science to design their algorithms, I believe that they do. But we're both just expressing beliefs, which are as good as opinions. And we disagree.

I believe this clarified my previous post. But you are welcome to disagree.