Is it time to sink the CESA?

[Selachimorpha]

I totally agree with you, PADI should get rid of the vertical CESA, if you have to perform horizontally in a confined water dive. This is the same problem PADI has with their approach on "hovering", bouancy control. SSI, Cmas America, NAUI don't make you hover to get certified, but PADI does.

So you expect people to get certified without the ability to make themselves neutrally buoyant? I think hovering is pretty essential. I mean imagine you stop swimming for a minute to look at something on your dive, how to you expect to maintain your depth in the water, by kicking continuously? People who can't hover and are not taught basic buoyancy concepts are the ones who feel they have to keep moving continuously on a dive, wasting loads of energy and gas.

Anyway back to the CESA....

 

[Zosimus]

I can see where you are coming from... One of the other students in my class had a reverse block when doing her CESA. Everyone could see she was in much pain and it made the rest of the class very uneasy.

But I also see the need in knowing what to do. But simulating it in the pool enough? Honestly... I don't know. Mixed feelings on the whole thing.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Interesting topic.

My 2 cents as a non-instructor and "average Joe" diver: CESA training should not be abandoned.... it should be expanded.

CESA is certainly a tool of very "last resort", but it is not a tool that should be removed from new divers' tool boxes.... unless it is replaced with something else.

New divers need to know that they CAN reach the surface safely from most recreational depths, and they need to know how to do this with a level a relative safety. The only way they can "know" this without a doubt is to have practiced it in a controlled setting. Having this knowledge can, in an OOA without a buddy in sight, make the difference between panic, bolt and embolism, and arriving at the surface rattled but with a great story to tell.

FYI: In my 1976 PADI class, CESA depth was 60' in open water. Everyone who made it through the course to that dive passed on the 1st try... and it was a larger class than is typical today. Ascent rate was 60' per minute (but probably a fair bit faster in reality).

Best wishes.

 

[FlyinV]

10 years later -- We are still doing the CESA in open water nothing has changed.

 

[boulderjohn]

10 years later -- We are still doing the CESA in open water nothing has changed.

Actually, something changed, although it has not had an impact on that training.

A few years after this thread ended, PADI and DAN did a study to determine the most common reasons for dive accidents, other than health issues, and see how training could be adjusted accordingly. The number one factor in diver deaths, it turned out, was an air embolism following a diver reaching the surface after a panicked ascent in which the diver likely held his or her breath. This usually followed an OOA event.

In other words, the most likely cause of death was an improperly performed emergency ascent.

Following that, PADI training did change in that they made a significantly greater emphasis in training on using the buddy system and especially frequent checking of air supplies. It left the CESA in the course.

Years ago, a thread on ScubaBoard that argued for the elimination of CESA included the fact that BSAC no longer taught CESA. I wrote to BSAC's leadership, and in our email exchange, I was told that their training emphasized making sure that the diver never needs to do a CESA by making sure they cannot run out of air. OK, I said, but what does a diver do if that happens anyway? What does a diver do if they are out of air with no nearby alternate air source? The reply was that they will have to do a CESA--they just will not have been trained on how to do it.

 

[FlyinV]

Do you think the training(testing) of the CESA needs to be done in Open Water or can a diver be trained well enough for a CESA in confined water (pool/horizontal) only?
Reading thru the WRSTC standards it doesn't appear they require a CESA specifically.

 

[Edward3c]

Years ago, a thread on ScubaBoard that argued for the elimination of CESA included the fact that BSAC no longer taught CESA. I wrote to BSAC's leadership, and in our email exchange, I was told that their training emphasized making sure that the diver never needs to do a CESA by making sure they cannot run out of air. OK, I said, but what does a diver do if that happens anyway? What does a diver do if they are out of air with no nearby alternate air source? The reply was that they will have to do a CESA--they just will not have been trained on how to do it.

A CESA has never been part of BSAC training. It was considered to dangerous to practise in UK waters.

 

[Outbound]

I can see the value in teaching the CESA and having OW students perform it. You drill into students the need to closely monitor their air and to stick close to their buddy, but you also give them a tool to use if, heaven forbid, they ever find themselves OOA and no octo nearby. I think the biggest value is for students who aren't as comfortable in the water and perhaps don't have much snorkeling or open water swimming experience. For people who are used to swimming underwater, we know just how long you can go without taking a breath of air if necessary. For people who tend to freak out, hopefully teaching a CESA shows them that it can be done if necessary. I kinda put it in the same group as the swim test. Sure, you don't have to be a great swimmer to be a good diver, but being comfortable in the water goes a LONG way.

 

[boulderjohn]

Do you think the training(testing) of the CESA needs to be done in Open Water or can a diver be trained well enough for a CESA in confined water (pool/horizontal) only?
Reading thru the WRSTC standards it doesn't appear they require a CESA specifically.

I did not read through this 11 year old thread carefully to see what I wrote then, but I am pretty sure my opinions have not changed. I do not believe CESA is well taught, and I especially believe the horizontal CESA is done badly. In fact, by itself it may do more harm than good, depending upon the instructor.

• When I was a DM and an AI assisting in classes, I frequently assisted an instructor who insisted that the requirement for the student to swim at a "normal" ascent rate meant 60 FPM. He might allow a student to cover the 30 feet in only 28 seconds, but anything faster than that was a failed attempt. That is very hard to do--students had to barely let air out as they exhaled in order to make it. Many students had to repeat the exercise. That is not what happens on a CESA--when expanding air exits on its own, it pours out. Thus, the students are learning an incorrect skill.
• The overwhelming message the horizontal CESA sends is "Wow! This is really hard! I don' t think I could do it in real life." You see this in ScubaBoard threads, as people question the depth from which a CESA or buoyant ascent can be done. In reality, Navy divers practicing submarine escapes have done ESAs from 300 feet with no trouble, because rapidly expanding air gives them all they need. This training-induced pessimism likely leads divers in real OOA situations to make the ultimate mistake of holding their breath.
• In order to get students to make it all the way, instructors take steps to insure that divers have full lungs when they start. This leads divers to assume that they can only make it if they have full breaths--more training-induced pessimism. In contrast, the US Navy teaches students to EXHALE BEFORE STARTING the ascent so that the lungs are not too full.
• The horizontal CESA does not teach the students about buoyancy changes correctly. When I did my instructor exam, every candidate lost a point on their horizontal CESA scores for the same reason. We started in the deep end of the pool (5 feet) and finished at 2.5 feet. We started neutrally buoyant with our bodies at 4 feet and exhaled for 30 seconds until we reached the 2.5 feet depth, at which point we had lost enough buoyancy to have our knees brush the bottom. We were penalized for having lost buoyancy. A true CESA is just the opposite; the BCD air and wetsuit bubbles expand rapidly, and we are supposed to teach students to vent air from the BCD during the ascent--that's the "C" in CESA. You can't do that in a horizontal CESA unless you are starting at a pretty deep end of the pool, and then it will be just a little. A student doing the OW CESA from 20-30 feet in a 7mm suit will breach the surface like Hunt for Red October if air is not vented.
• Unless the instructor adds it to the course, students are not taught that the regulator will become harder to breathe for several breaths before going empty, giving adequate warning to prepare for the ascent if needed or seek a buddy.
• Unless the instructor adds it to the course, students are not told that the regulator will give them air after the diver has ascended. We are supposed to fail the student who inhales in the last 5 feet. We should instead reward that student for demonstrating that knowledge.

 

[TMHeimer]

Actually, something changed, although it has not had an impact on that training.

A few years after this thread ended, PADI and DAN did a study to determine the most common reasons for dive accidents, other than health issues, and see how training could be adjusted accordingly. The number one factor in diver deaths, it turned out, was an air embolism following a diver reaching the surface after a panicked ascent in which the diver likely held his or her breath. This usually followed an OOA event.

In other words, the most likely cause of death was an improperly performed emergency ascent.

Following that, PADI training did change in that they made a significantly greater emphasis in training on using the buddy system and especially frequent checking of air supplies. It left the CESA in the course.

Years ago, a thread on ScubaBoard that argued for the elimination of CESA included the fact that BSAC no longer taught CESA. I wrote to BSAC's leadership, and in our email exchange, I was told that their training emphasized making sure that the diver never needs to do a CESA by making sure they cannot run out of air. OK, I said, but what does a diver do if that happens anyway? What does a diver do if they are out of air with no nearby alternate air source? The reply was that they will have to do a CESA--they just will not have been trained on how to do it.

Not sure why the thread was revived, but....I didn't bother to read your most recent post because what you say here, and what LeadTurn-SD said a couple of posts back said says it all. Not sure how anyone could argue against this.