100% 02 during your SI?

[DaleC]

Honestly, some of you have such a low estimation of the capacities of divers to figure things out in an unstructured environment. It's very sad really as it speaks to a loss, both of faith and of courage. The faith that people can figure things out - and the courage to let them do it.

If only there were a gilded cage big enough to contain all the recreational divers in the world. We could just break their wings and save them from themselves.

 

[gsk3]

Honestly, some of you have such a low estimation of the capacities of divers to figure things out in an unstructured environment. It's very sad really as it speaks to a loss, both of faith and of courage. The faith that people can figure things out - and the courage to let them do it.

If only there were a gilded cage big enough to contain all the recreational divers in the world. We could just break their wings and save them from themselves.

I've never dove with the OP, and as I didn't get the impression that those telling him that he can just tote a bottle of O2 have either. Given the state of the average rec diver, I think that handing out blanket advice to just carry an O2 bottle isn't the best idea.

That doesn't mean that I think there are no rec.-trained divers in the world who wouldn't get themselves killed with such a bottle. But it helps a lot to at least be shown a bottle switch procedure, have proper labeling discussed, and have the importance of analyzing and confirming the MOD markings before each dive reinforced. Other things that might be good to know is deco with a lost bottle, sharing deco gas, etc. If only there were an organized means of transmitting this knowledge....

 

[Thalassamania]

Fair point.

...undertake a venture that is potentially lethal if done incorrectly or a mistake is made, when effective training is easily available.

I must undertake several dozen (or more) potentially lethal if done incorrectly or a mistake is made things that I have not been trained to do, and yet, somehow, I survive. That's probably true of most of us.

I could say the same about using O2 in the water.

You can say anything (within the TOS) that you want, so what?

Yes, the 'skill-set' for gas switching is basic. But carrying a hypoxic mix well below it's MOD requires a 'mind-set' also.

Yup, it requires the ability to say to your self: "Self, don't breathe off this bottle deeper than 20 feet. OK self? OK!"

Maintaining a precise stop is a fairly basic skill-set also. Doing so under any circumstance, without distraction or loss of focus, is a 'mind-set'.

So we agree that the skill is not particularly hard, that leaves us requiring the the ability to say to your self: "Self, stay at 20 feet. OK self? OK!"

I'm sorry, but I am in the water with 'Joe the Recreational Diver' every day. I just wouldn't want to see them chugging 100% on a shallow stop.

Fortunately that is a rare experience for me, the divers that I am in the water with, even the brandy new ones have highly developed "mind sets." If yours do not, you should be trying to fix that rather than trumpeting PADI on one hand and explaining that you have to do an unthinkable (at least for me) amount of time back-filling of the skills and knowledge possessed by 'Joe the Recreational Diver.' Sounds kinda schizophrenic to me.

Yes, that's true and very valid. Those divers didn't have classes. More importantly, they didn't have PADI classes. Are we under the impression that training quality improved with the evolution of mass-market scuba tuition?

Clearly it did not.

I wrote about this on a different thread earlier today: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...l-diving-serve-any-purpose-6.html#post6126199

Modern divers aren't comparable to the divers of the 60's and 70's. Different generation, different training, different mind-set. Yes, there are still 'adventurers' out there - but that's a tiny minority now. If we are only talking about a tiny minority - who have access to solid mentorship and display a great mind-set... then fine. If we're talking about 'any' scuba diver.... then your average McDiver product of the PADI system probably shouldn't play around with O2 underwater.

I don't dive with McDiver, but a lot of the folks I do dive with have underwater swiss army knives. From what you tell me the average product of the PADI system probably shouldn't play around underwater without adult supervision, period, end of story.

Honestly, some of you have such a low estimation of the capacities of divers to figure things out in an unstructured environment. It's very sad really as it speaks to a loss, both of faith and of courage. The faith that people can figure things out - and the courage to let them do it.

If only there were a gilded cage big enough to contain all the recreational divers in the world. We could just break their wings and save them from themselves.

He speaks from his experience, I speak from mine, what more can either of us do?

 

[beautybelow]

"Fortunately that is a rare experience for me, the divers that I am in the water with, even the brandy new ones have highly developed "mind sets." If yours do not, you should be trying to fix that rather than trumpeting PADI on one hand and explaining that you have to do an unthinkable (at least for me) amount of time back-filling of the skills and knowledge possessed by 'Joe the Recreational Diver.' Sounds kinda schizophrenic to me."

Unfortunately, I think, that for most people in the recreational dive industry today working and making a living involves more time taking people diving who have already been "taught" to do so by someone else.

That someone else could have very well been you, Thal, or any of the other awesome instructors on Scubaboard. Only that someone else could have been taught by you, say 10 years ago, and you haven't seen them since. And guess what, that dive bug they had back then when they learned everything they needed to know so well from one of those awesome non padi instructors flew away, for whatever reason, and they haven't been in the water for 8 years.

They book a vacation and show up with brand new shiny gear ready to dive.

This happens a lot. So to say that the diver is a direct reflection of their instructor (original or otherwise) is not really a fair statement in my opinion.

 

[Thalassamania]

Rather doubtful that that someone else was me, and even if it was, the students that we train know, quite specifically, how to get themselves back up to speed after some time off, so I rather doubt, for my folks at least, your scenario of: "They book a vacation and show up with brand new shiny gear ready to dive."

You say that: "This happens a lot. So to say that the diver is a direct reflection of their instructor (original or otherwise) is not really a fair statement in my opinion." As I just demonstrated, that is, in direct point of fact, a direct reflection of their instructor (original or otherwise) and is a fair statement, at least in my opinion.

There is a rule that I live by that relates here: If they have not learned ... did you actually teach?

 

[beautybelow]

"Fortunately that is a rare experience for me, the divers that I am in the water with, even the brandy new ones have highly developed "mind sets." If yours do not, you should be trying to fix that rather than trumpeting PADI on one hand and explaining that you have to do an unthinkable (at least for me) amount of time back-filling of the skills and knowledge possessed by 'Joe the Recreational Diver.' Sounds kinda schizophrenic to me."

Unfortunately, I think, that for most people in the recreational dive industry today working and making a living involves more time taking people diving who have already been "taught" to do so by someone else.

That someone else could have very well been you, Thal, or any of the other awesome instructors on Scubaboard. Only that someone else could have been taught by you, say 10 years ago, and you haven't seen them since. And guess what, that dive bug they had back then when they learned everything they needed to know so well from one of those awesome non padi instructors flew away, for whatever reason, and they haven't been in the water for 8 years.

They book a vacation and show up with brand new shiny gear ready to dive.

This happens a lot. So to say that the diver is a direct reflection of their instructor (original or otherwise) is not really a fair statement in my opinion.

Fair enough...I think I have seen you tell other people that they are the exception to the rule.

So maybe you are the exception to the rule. I wish I only had your divers show up.

 

[DevonDiver]

From what you tell me the average product of the PADI system probably shouldn't play around underwater without adult supervision, period, end of story.

I think that's an over-statement.

However, I do believe that the "average product of the PADI system" receives a set level of diving training, relevant to a specific criteria of diving activity. Training is appropriate to a defined activity, nothing more. Consequently, the limits of specific training courses need to be balanced with limits on specific diving activities.

A 4-day PADI Open Water course will never deliver the same capabilities as Jim Lapenta's 2 week Open Water course. His course won't deliver the same capabilities as Thal's 2 month (?) Open Water course. Apples and oranges and kiwi fruit.

As long as training matches the demands of the endeavour and mitigates applicable risks to a reasonable level, it's ok.

However, it pays to 'know your fruit' when trying to make distinctions about diver capability.

 

[Thalassamania]

Fair enough...I think I have seen you tell other people that they are the exception to the rule.

So maybe you are the exception to the rule. I wish I only had your divers show up.

I don't know what the rule is, but I am not particularly exceptional ... I am just a rather middling member of what is now a difference community, or if you prefer, of an earlier time when we were all part of basically the same diving community. Just think of me as the Ghost of Diving Past.

 

[DaleC]

I've never dove with the OP, and as I didn't get the impression that those telling him that he can just tote a bottle of O2 have either. Given the state of the average rec diver, I think that handing out blanket advice to just carry an O2 bottle isn't the best idea.

We just discuss ideas here. This is a discussion board and (in my experience) when conversations are allowed to run their course a balanced perspective is achieved. What kind of discussion can ever result if every idea must be measured against a.) I don't know you - so I can't tell you anything or b.) I could tell you, but someone, somewhere, will take this information and misuse it so I won't tell you.

What is the state of today's recreational diver? Depends; I'm one and I understand what's being discussed. And if the education of such said diver is so lacking - is the answer to direct them towards more education from the people who produced the lack in the first place?

That doesn't mean that I think there are no rec.-trained divers in the world who wouldn't get themselves killed with such a bottle. But it helps a lot to at least be shown a bottle switch procedure, have proper labeling discussed, and have the importance of analyzing and confirming the MOD markings before each dive reinforced. Other things that might be good to know is deco with a lost bottle, sharing deco gas, etc. If only there were an organized means of transmitting this knowledge....

Interesting, with the exception of the deco issues (not what is being discussed here) isn't it completely possible to discuss and demonstrate (via video) breathing O2 during a safety stop over the internet? Specifically, what aspect or piece of information cannot be conveyed? I'm curious because PADI tends to believe that such courses as OW, Nitrox and EFR can all incorporate internet/video delivery vehicles.

There is a very seductive ego attraction to imagining that one possesses the ability to transform other peoples abilities. On the one hand, it can be a positive when it informs you of your importance in the process of someones education. On the other hand, it can be a negative when it deludes you into believing someone cannot achieve education without you.

 

[Thalassamania]

...
And if the education of such said diver is so lacking - is the answer to direct them towards more education from the people who produced the lack in the first place?
...

That is both a wonderful insight and a delightful turn of phrase ... thank you. It is right up there with the child who killed both his parents and threw himself on the mercy of the court, after all, we was an orphan.