100' before AOW?

[Osric]

Where novice divers have exceeded their recommended depth limits... what proportion of them did so whilst following a DM on holiday and what proportion of them did so as a self-planned dive with an equally inexperienced buddy?

I have about 21 dives and have gone to 100' three times. Every time was with a DM, but then every time I also planned in advance and was aware that I was heading to a deeper dive site. Does that make it a "trust me" dive? I don't know. It is reassuring to dive with an experienced leader who knows the site, and I would not have attempted these dives with even an experienced buddy who didn't know the sites; but at the same time, I dove these sites with a computer and a willingness to abort and manage my own air and safety stops (and avoid deco of course).

I haven't really considered whether these dives are too advanced for me. I hope I don't come to regret diving the way I do; but I plan to continue diving sites that interest me, generally with a professional guide, and wasn't thinking of AOW until I hit about 40-50 dives of experience. I think I'll get more from additional training once I have more experience, personally.

Osric

 

[DevonDiver]

Guys...I was interested in this...so I put a poll here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/370333-100-before-aow-how-why.html

 

[JBRES1]

I may be wrong but I feel that AOW does not always mean that you are ready to do deep dives.
I started diving 40 years ago and have yet to take the AOW class. Is the AOW class going to make me a better diver than I was last week?
People get hung up on the cards that you have rather than the dives that you have gone on, how comfortable you are in the water and how you react to a given problem while diving.
I have dove with some divers that had their AOW cards, yet had problems with simple tasks under water.

Jim Breslin

 

[DevonDiver]

I may be wrong but I feel that AOW does not always mean that you are ready to do deep dives.

Correct. It provides some greater depth of knowledge..and the deep dive gives you the chance to experience deeper water, whilst under supervision.

It does extend your recommended maximum limit to 30m, but there is no critieria that says you have to dive that deep. If nothing else, it makes you more comfortable in shallower water.

Any diver should increase their depth, in line with their personal comfort, training, experience and a conservative diving mindset.

I started diving 40 years ago and have yet to take the AOW class. Is the AOW class going to make me a better diver than I was last week?

If you find a skilled and motivated instructor, who can tailor the content of the course to identify and rectify any weak areas, whilst also building on your strengths.... then YES.

If the intructor just 'goes through the motions' and delivers the basic course requirements with no thought or flexibility... then NO.

People get hung up on the cards that you have rather than the dives that you have gone on, how comfortable you are in the water and how you react to a given problem while diving.

Not really. Most instructors and dive guides pay more attention to how they assess you...

Dive count is very variable. It depends on location, conditions...and, of course, whether you got into worse habits over more dives, or whether you have striven to develop your skills and knowledge...

Comfort in the water is a good indicator. That said, it can lead to complacency. Comfort can also be a result of false confidence - having very little to do with your overall capability.

Reaction to problems... this is perhaps the best indicator. It can highlight that you've recieved effective training, made the effort to keep your basic skills fresh and practiced.... and whether you have a stress tolerance to apply problem solving.

I have dove with some divers that had their AOW cards, yet had problems with simple tasks under water.

This is where we all nod our heads in agreement and mutter "oh, the sad state of the scuba training industry...."

 

[Insta-Gator]

I have about 21 dives and have gone to 100' three times. ... and wasn't thinking of AOW until I hit about 40-50 dives of experience. I think I'll get more from additional training once I have more experience, personally.
Osric

Don't wait too long or you'll quickly out-grow the least common denominator of the AOW class material and think it too basic and possibly a waste of time and money.

 

[CamG]

Greetings Fusion94 I have been watching this thread and thinking back to my OW / AOW and what we were thinking.
I remember very clearly seeking to do AOW before we left for our trip to MX so that we could dive to 100' if we wanted.
Our instructor spent extra time explaining the safe way to dive deep in our AOW and just what could happen, the risks.
My wife or I never even considered going to 100' before we were trained to be there.

I know that sounds sort of out of the ordinary but we have never pushed the limits of out training but tried to stay conservative.
This being said I understand the trend that is being spoke of here.
It is a dangerous one to go on Trust Me Dives with a DM or other experienced divers.
But that really needs to be another thread all together.
It is not just OW / AOW but all certifications Tech included.
This is a very serious topic!

CamG Keep diving....Keep training....Keep learning!

 

[ajtoady]

I found that I was a little anxious going to 100' in my AOW class. I realized though that I had an instructor with me and my buddy. That in itself was all the calming effect I needed. I don't think I would like to advocate trying it unsupervised. During the course the book suggested that it would be intimidating doing the night dive due to darkness etc. I couldn't wait to dive at night! In reply to dive within your limits, I believe in that due to the fact that every dive is an adventure and learning experience!

 

[Gilldiver]

Over the last 32 years of diving I have found that training and experience are important but personality types and attitude can be even more important. A diver with an excitable personality will tend to head towards the Panicked side much more quickly than a more laid back type who can roll with the flow.

I have seen divers types who:

1) Never see anything as they are constantly looking at their computer, Depth gauge, timer, or have to keep within zero feet of their buddies all the time. These divers get spooked and can panic quickly and recovery from that panic may not be possible for them while in the water. You may see them doing a panicked rush for the surface.

2) Diver who see everything but their SPG, depth gauge, buddy, etc These guys never get spooked or get spooked way too late to be able to save themselves, you see these divers on someone’s alternative air source being rescued.

3) Divers who are aware or their buddies, have a situational awareness, have a pattern of looking at gauges every few minutes. They don’t get rattled easily and never, never give up no matter what the situation. Back in the 80’s when Gary Gentile wrote his deep wreck diver book he made a comment that everyone gets spooked when things go south. Some divers stay spooked, some get over it with help of their buddies and work things out, some get over it in a few seconds and save themselves and their buddies.

Type 1 divers may never make a good deep diver no matter how much training. Luckily they tend to wash out and leave the sport quickly

Type 2 divers may learn to be OK within their personal limits but may have to be babysat by a DM on most dives

Type 3 divers tend to be good to go, can handle many situations with little guidance and train very easily picking up new things the first time they see it.

Good DM’s in the Islands will assume that any diver is a Type 1 or 2 until proven to be a Type 3. That is what the check out dives are for - Q: is this diver a disaster walking onto the boat who I need to keep near to, or can I trust him as long as he is within sight and I just need to check to make sure he is watching his air and doesn’t go deep by “accident,” or That diver can be let off the reservation and as long as they and I have an understanding of their dive plan and I can spend my time looking after the others.

 

[DevonDiver]

I have about 21 dives and have gone to 100' three times. Every time was with a DM, but then every time I also planned in advance and was aware that I was heading to a deeper dive site.

Just out of interest... what planning was conducted? And what specific safety information were you given before the dive?

Does that make it a "trust me" dive?

The basic 'definition' (if such a thing exists) of a 'Trust Me' dive, is where one diver abdicates all responsibility for their personal safety to another diver. This leads to a situation where the divers is prone to severe risk of death or injury should their buddy not be able to assist them.

As a recreational diver, you always have the option to CESA to the surface, so theoretically, it wouldn't be a 'Trust Me' dive to venture to 100'.

In contrast, the member who earlier stated that he went to 210' with "experienced divers" was very much conducting a 'Trust Me' dive. The diver had no personal capability to surface from that dive alone, without high risk. Issues like; severe narcosis, oxygen toxicity and DCS would be big factors, and their avoidance requires specific knowledge and skills that he didn't possess.

Nonetheless, diving to 100' on the basis that your buddy will look after you is not necessarily the pinnacle of common sense. There is still a large element of personal irresponsibility (def: not being personally responsible) involved in this type of dive.

That said, putting some faith in a mentor or leader is a good way to stretch your personal experience and comfort zone.

I do believe that any progress in confidence should be accompanied by an equal progression in knowledge and skill. Too much reliance on a leader can cause the link between confidence and competence to become disjointed.

Where one exceeds the other, the diver can be prone to making dives beyond their capacity.

 

[Osric]

Just out of interest... what planning was conducted? And what specific safety information were you given before the dive?

Before traveling to Oahu, I was reading about dive sites and could see that many of them were classified as 'advanced' deep dives. In the process of choosing my dive shop, I emailed him a quick description of myself:

I am interested in 3-8 dives between Feb 3rd and Feb 5th this year. I am an inexperienced but comfortable diver (about 14 dives) whose last DM commented "you seem really comfortable with that camera for someone who hasn't even done 20 dives". I'd prefer to dive with small groups of certified divers.
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The shop recommended that I start with two shallow dives. They dive deep dives in the AM and shallower dives around noon. Specifically, he said:

I can get you out on all AM dives if you like..... It really is best however to start with a 2 tank shallow dive so we can get weighting, buoyancy, trim and any other kinks worked out. Please let me know what's best for you and we'll get you set up.
​

After choosing my dive shops (trip report will be posted separately when I get some time to organize it) I e-mailed asking what specific sites we were likely to dive. The response was that we'd dive the YO 257 and Seatiger (different days). I did some searching and read what was written on these wrecks (e.g. Hawaii shipwrecks,Oahu wreck diving, yo 257, Corsair, Sea Tiger, Oahu shipwrecks and YO-257, Wreck Diving Hawaii, Dive Oahu, Hawaii Scuba). I wrote back:

Great, I've read about both sites.

I'd like to say that I have only done what could at most be called 'beginner' wreck diving, in some shallow and very open wrecks in Barbados with trivial penetrations (large hallways, open hulls, etc). I have dived a wall to 120' but am still relatively inexperienced and use up my air very fast at that depth. I don't say all this to make you fear you'll have a situation on your hands - I do feel comfortable underwater - but after these dives I would appreciate your advice and assessment of my diving so that I can improve.
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I then walked through likely dive profiles on my computer's simulator.

On the dive day, the DM had a card showing a clear picture of the wreck; I noted my concern that I didn't want to cut the other diver's dive short (she was logging her 150th dive) and planned to stay above her for the bulk of the drive except for potentially penetrating the wreck where two big hatches made that trivial. We discussed going down and ascending via the mooring line and avoiding going below the level of the deck but that was about the extent of any safety discussion. On the dive itself, when I wanted to penetrate I asked the DM and he asked for air remaining; I was at 2000 PSI (about 9m into the dive) and he approved my swimthrough; I did it, then returned to about 80' for the remainder of the dive.

The second dive - the YO 257 - the entire dive profile was at around 80' and the DM was good at spotting tiny critters; as that time I had my macro camera with me I focused on following her and getting some shots. Less planning went in here though I had again read about the site ahead of time, seen the card with pictures used for briefing, and discussed the dive plan with the DM on the boat. It was just myself and the DM that time so I was less concerned about my air limiting the dive (good thing too as my regulator freeflowed at certain angles and made it a short trip).

Criticisms/comments welcome.

Osric