12 boys lost in flooded Thai cave

[Medic4070]

Burn patients typically don’t go that “deep” in a HBO chamber for wound treatment. I don’t have the wound treatment tables in front of me, but I THINK it’s only down to 20’-ish. Plus, with unconscious patients you also have the option of an elective myringectomy (perforating the ear drum).

I’m COMPLETELY speculating here, but it would seem that you’d want the “victim” diver to at least be conscious enough to manage their airway, cooperate with instructions and let you know if there are any problems. Unconscious with a leaky or dislodged AGA isn’t a great recipe for success. Again- just offering it up for discussion- I’m not a cave diver.

 

[Dan]

You have a good point there. The doctor on site with the boys would have discussed the pro & con of such option the rescue divers, I would think.

Here is an interesting non-diver's perspective of going underwater for the first time. The differences are boys will don FFM without fins & tank & being towed at depth.

 

[Skittl1321]

Burn patients typically don’t go that “deep” in a HBO chamber for wound treatment. I don’t have the wound treatment tables in front of me, but I THINK it’s only down to 20’-ish. Plus, with unconscious patients you also have the option of an elective myringectomy (perforating the ear drum).

I’m COMPLETELY speculating here, but it would seem that you’d want the “victim” diver to at least be conscious enough to manage their airway, cooperate with instructions and let you know if there are any problems. Unconscious with a leaky or dislodged AGA isn’t a great recipe for success. Again- just offering it up for discussion- I’m not a cave diver.

Thanks for clarification on the chamber.

I also wonder when they say drugged what level of drugged they mean. I've seen speculation they'd pull them out unconcious on stretchers, but that doesn't seem to jive with small spaces that require divers to take off their gear. They wouldn't be able to just pull them through, and I agree with you that having to have someone else manage the airway would be super complicated.


Has there been talk of excavanting the tightest spots? Or is risk of cave in too great.

 

[CuzzA]

You have a good point there. The doctor on site with the boys would have discussed the pro & con of such option the rescue divers, I would think.

Here is an interesting non-diver's perspective of going underwater for the first time.

I imagine most kids would manage better than most adults, including that guy.

Kids typically are pretty fearless or simply don't comprehend the kind of risks they are taking. I suspect if they have good lead divers they will be okay and this will have a good ending.

 

[MikeyIdea]

Some quick info on the expected weather the next 7 days. We usually talk about percent precipitation in the tropics, it really makes sense here where the rains often are heavy during the rainy season - My sample effects of XX percent precipitation are not around the cave in any way, just reference numbers for those of you not used to the effects of tropical rains, what I would expect in Thailand with XX percent precipitation and no depression = the rains are normally in the afternoon and sometimes during the night only.

20% is little, no flooding, 30% too, 40% and it's starting to heat up a bit but nothing seriously, we could see some localised flooding but it will recede quite quickly, 50% is half the surface area will get rain which usually is heavy, there will be flooding in some areas but it should still recede decently quickly. 60% is a lot actually, quite a few areas will see some flooding, it's much more water coming down so it will take longer to recede but it will still recede decently quickly. 60% is still not too bad unless there's a depression or it's several days in a row. Several days with 60% will get land saturated. 80% precipitation doesn't happen that often...

Depression is a totally different matter. It will often rain for a few to several to many more hours per day even. What is forecast for the area around the cave the next 7 days is NOT depression - it's just thunder storms, heavy afternoon rains with 60% coverage, could be night rains too, small risk of morning and evening rains.

The picture below is from the Thai Meteorological Department's website, I find their prognoses quite good. It doesn't look good at all, I worry that the pumps aren't going to be able to stop the water level from raising

Source: Thai Meteorological Department - Chiang Rai, it's for Chiang Rai, about 120 km south of the cave

 

[Dan]

I posted this earlier here about my experience in diving at zero visibility, I dove in Chucmool Little Brother cenote in Mexico a couple years ago. The visibility was great at the beginning. Towards the end, there must have been a heavy rain outside, bringing mud into the cenote entrance / exit to a point that I could not see anything but milky brownish water. Going forward I ended up hitting a limestone wall. I didn't see even the guide fins, that were used to be 2-3 feet in front of me. I just froze in place until the guide's hand grabbed my arm from under and dragged me down through invisible tunnel & out of the mud hole. Apparently the exit hole was below me. If you are not familiar with the exit location, you might end up with just blindly searching for the opening as I could not see anything & lost track of the guideline. A non-diver facing such situation would be panicking, I think.

 

[MikeyIdea]

I imagine most kids would manage better than most adults, including that guy.

Kids typically are pretty fearless or simply don't comprehend the kind of risks they are taking. I suspect if they have good lead divers they will be okay and this will have a good ending.

I totally agree, they are a tightly knitted group that remained rational and calm for 9 days, most of that in total darkness. that's a big! Wow really. I just don't think they will panic.

It is part of Thai culture and upbringing that kids should respect and trust adults, that would normally not matter much in a dark cave of course but Thai NAVY seals are clearly not normal adults either. I'd say they are exactly the kind of guys that those kids would trust, respect and listen to

We could see an extraction tonight

 

[KathyV]

When we did our OW dive training classes at the YMCA many years ago, I remember that they required a "zero visibility exercise" in the pool. They completely blacked out our masks and then a dive instructor led us underwater one at a time, to the entrance to an obstacle course that they had assembled underwater. You had to feel your way through the twists and turns to eventually find the exit.

It was a scary experience, even though I knew that I was in a pool with dive instructors nearby and watching me carefully I was still frightened to be underwater without vision. I remember that afterwards the dive instructor told me to "stop exploring with your head!" I was so scared that I kept one hand firmly clamped on my regulator because I was afraid that it would get knocked out of my mouth and I wouldn't be able to replace it. Consequently, I was trying to feel my way around with just one hand and I kept bumping into things with my head! Not a smart move to risk getting stunned or knocked unconscious underwater.

I know that it will be terribly frightening for these young boys, but they are brave and very motivated and hopefully they will be able to trust their guides and get through a terrible ordeal safely.

 

[MikeyIdea]

Weather is closing in - Chiang Rai weather radar loop. Rain within an hour now

The cave is almost straight north of Chiang Rai very close to the border - Straight north from the dot and perhaps one or two millimetres to the right.

TMD Weather Radar of the area around the cave

 

[uncfnp]

Thanks for clarification on the chamber.

I also wonder when they say drugged what level of drugged they mean. I've seen speculation they'd pull them out unconcious on stretchers, but that doesn't seem to jive with small spaces that require divers to take off their gear. They wouldn't be able to just pull them through, and I agree with you that having to have someone else manage the airway would be super complicated.


Has there been talk of excavanting the tightest spots? Or is risk of cave in too great.

I could not imagine a situation that would call for complete sedation. The level of risk, not least of which is respiratory sedation without a way to moniter and correct, would seem to great under any circumstance. However something call conscious sedation or procedual sedation might be appropriate for any child deemed unusually anxious about the event.

Perhaps evaluation by a trained child psychologist or at least a dive instructor that frequently works with teens?