200' on air for 5 min bottom time?

[Abdullah]

Me as well! 5 pages ago no less



EDIT: 6 pages

Yeah, but you all are still here...

---------- Post added June 5th, 2013 at 06:57 AM ----------

How would you like me to go about giving you a non-list? I can't prove a negative (obviously), so I'm asking for someone to prove the positive (a list of divers with low ENDs who died on deep dives). I've been following this stuff for a few years now, and I've yet to come across any, and no one has helped me find any despite multiple requests for assistance.

I think that was part of the point of DCBC's post - none of the major agencies consider that a meaningful statistic. They do seem to be closely tracking direct causative factors (heart attack, OOA, etc.), so one can only presume that your indicator does not indicate anything significant to the mishap investigation. Does that mean that their are no dead low END divers, no, it only means that the investigators weren't documenting what the END was when the diver got into trouble.

 

[rjack321]

Some friends of mine made it happen in rural China. That's a tall order and just proves that its possible. USS Atlanta project is another example. Idk much about Alaska, but Dive Alaska fills trimix. An RB can really help with the logistics, too.

Possible. Not always easy, sure, but usually possible.

I bring what I can and make reasonable judgments based on what we have available and how much time and money we have to work with. I don't dive "deep air", but I have done >100ft END. The only other option was to go home early and come back next year. I would never bother with a 5 min bottom time dive, complete waste of my time even gearing up for that regardless of the gas mix.

And yes in a perfect world getting some sort of RB is a pretty effective helium strategy. I can't believe Kevrumbo is still diving OC in SE Asia - and buying up the whole country's helium supply each trip too.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I can't believe Kevrumbo is still diving OC in SE Asia - and buying up the whole country's helium supply each trip too.

The real question is why haven't they doubled the price for it? It's not like he'll be bringing his own, and it seems like there's a group of divers on here who believe that if helium can be obtained by spending money (no matter that the requisite sum might fit comfortably into a NASA expedition budget) then it would be totally irresponsible to dive without it. Someone corner the market already and put PfcAJ's 'My buddies could afford to make it appear in China, so anyone who doesn't pay to make it happen is so irresponsible as to be beneath contempt!' approach to the test - I wonder how much per cf they'd really pay before they considered deep air . . . or surrendered all wrecks below 100-130' END to divers other than themselves

 

[Kevrumbo]

I bring what I can and make reasonable judgments based on what we have available and how much time and money we have to work with. I don't dive "deep air", but I have done >100ft END. The only other option was to go home early and come back next year. I would never bother with a 5 min bottom time dive, complete waste of my time even gearing up for that regardless of the gas mix.

And yes in a perfect world getting some sort of RB is a pretty effective helium strategy. I can't believe Kevrumbo is still diving OC in SE Asia - and buying up the whole country's helium supply each trip too.

. . .this hypothetical dive to 200'/60m for 5 minutes is [actually] a special case [of Minimum Deco/Ratio Deco] -more like a quick abort of an attempted tech dive (like a mis-drop on a wreck which turned out not to be there; This happened to me at 150'/45m trying to find the F4 Phantom Jet outside Subic Bay)- so you simply come up to half your max depth and do 30 second stops & 30 second moves every decade depth (triad depth in meters) to 20'/6m, and then an optional 3fpm/1mpm slow ascent to surface, all on backgas (i.e. you don't have to use the EANx50 or Oxygen deco gases for such a short bottom time at depth). Get back on the skiff, check the GPS & line up the landmarks and jump in again hopefully on the correct coordinates for the wreck. (It took us two trials --we finally found the F4 Jet on the third try).

And I'll still choose to shell out the overseas expense for Open Circuit supply & blending of Oxygen for deco gases, and Helium if available for bottom mix, or else deal with the Devil that I do know --Open Circuit Deep Air, rather than with the Devil I don't know --Rebreathers. (For the initial outlay costs of the Rebreather unit and the requisite hours needed for training & diving the RB unit --I'd rather spend the time & monies immediately right now on travel/logistics, diving my bucket list wrecks on Open Circuit.)

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I was thinking about this thread last night and then remembered some of the spearfishing dives we used to do not that long ago. We would use single 80's. and a pony bottle and we would typically do at least 3 dives per day.

Each dive was for spearfishing on a deep ledge with a top around 170 and the bottom around 192 or so...Not really 200 ft. I remember learning that if I kept my total run time to around 9 minutes the skinny dipper computer would be fine with little or no deco. We would chase fish, holding our breath then make a shot and chase down and grab a fish. The breath holding while stalking and then sprinting afterwards to retrieve a fish, was tough and I sometimes developed terrible co2 headaches that would only resolve with oxygen on the boat. Our max depth was typically down to the sand at over 190.

I found that I always had more than enough air for these dives, and they were solo, so no need to save a lot of air. I learned that if I started to breath heavy and deep during the descent and during the entire dive (when not stalking a fish) I would use more air, but it would greatly reduce the headaches..I found that if I breathed more than I felt necessary during the dive it helped a lot.

Never got bent, but I think we used to do 3-4 minutes of oxygen at 20 feet on most dives "just to be safe".

We used to do decent on fish, doing these short bounce dives with a small tank. I remember the first trip I did, I was not used to diving below 135 at all, and I shot a fish and was startled when I tried to put the fish on a stringer and something bumped me and I looked down and I had already strung up a fish... that I had already forgot about and must have shot 2 minutes earlier... kinda like oh yeah.. I think I remember shooting that fish... Really was a good lesson in narcosis and co2 effects. Deep breathing and not getting over exerted is very important I found.

 

[DCBC]

there, i removed all the extraneous intellectual posturing for you.

So the sum of your input to this topic is to sarcastically point out my factual statement that "There are conflicting studies" and there are "other studies that show (the studies I referenced) to be inaccurate." Thanks for your input; I'm sure we're all better off for it...

As far as "intellectual" is concerned, I'll try harder not to come across that way. "uh, wut?"

 

[PfcAJ]

Heywood Day, 140', 1962
Ron Hughes, 150', 1963
Paul Giancontere, 200', 1965
Brend Joost, 160', 1968
Stephen Alexander, 210', 1969
Pat McIntree, 150', 1969
Brett Naisbet, 150', 1969
Wayne Dillon, 210', 1969
Francis Wilson, 160', 1969
Paul Bartlett, 140', 1970
Robert Causey, 180', 1970
Bud Sims, 300', 1970
Fred Schmidt, 150', 1970
John Cruselle, 180', 1971
Frank Martz, 300', 1971
Robert Vaughn, 200', 1971
Doug Deurloo, 150', 1971
Ray Elman, 260', 1972
Alex Nesbitt, 200', 1972
Thomas Cranmer, 200', 1972
Paul Dietrich, 240', 1972
Dan Cole, 220', 1972
Rich Broman, 140', 1972
Stephen Millott, 250', 1973
Christine Millott, 250', 1973
John Bockerman, 250', 1973
Gordon Roberts, 250', 1973
William Smith, 200', 1973
Melvan Tillman, 150', 1973
James Waddington, 140', 1973
Robert Wyatt, 210', 1973
Deane Valentine, 190', 1973
George Van de Nord, 190', 1973
Paul Reinholm, 170', 1974
Unidentified, 200', 1974
Dana Turner, 290', 1974
Charles Barone, 180', 1975
Daniel Howard, 180', 1975
Steve Herman, 180', 1975
Mike Goddard, 170', 1976
Arthur Williamson, 140', 1976
Sven Sorenson, 140', 1976
William Wood, 180', 1978
Carl Miles, 180', 1978
Terry Collins, 260', 1981
James Bentz, 260', 1981
Bill McFadden, 200', 1988
William Cronin, 140', 1988
Kenny Potts, 200', 1990
Lloyd Morrison, 250', 1990
Billy Liiard, 180', 1991
Ormsby, John 230' 1985
Feldman, Steve 235' 1991
Soellner, Ed 145' 1992
Rouse, Jr, Chris 235' 1992
Rouse, Sr Chris 235' 1992
Santulli, Robert 220 1992
Sheck Exley 400 ead 1994
Nick Commoglio 450
Rob Palmer 396 1997
Rob Parker 250 1997
Ed Suarez 280 1994
Carl Sutton 280
Legare Hole 240
Andy Bader 220
Aron Arvidson 311 1995
Dennis Sirvet 110 meters
Douglas Missavage 191 1997

So much for that PADI report being all inclusive. There are more after that date, but I have a finite amount of time to devote to finding/ making lists.

Also
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/2522
Dissociation of the behavioral and subjective components of nitrogen narcosis and diver adaptation
Subjective and behavioural responses to nitrogen narcosis and alcohol.

I also suggest reading the 2008 DAN report. 19% of ALL reported fatalities occurred between 120 and 150', with 10 total below 120', and another 10 between 90 and 120. That's a pretty stout percentage. Of ALL the fatalities reported, Trimix was used in 1 case (OC), and rebreathers in 2. END was not reported.

2006 DAN report. 26% of fatalities that had a reported depth involved dives past 100'. Only 6 of the dive fatalities w/ reported gas involved trimix (END not reported again).

Remember my 'handful' statement? There ya go.

 

[AfterDark]

Heywood Day, 140', 1962
Ron Hughes, 150', 1963
Paul Giancontere, 200', 1965
Brend Joost, 160', 1968
Stephen Alexander, 210', 1969
Pat McIntree, 150', 1969
Brett Naisbet, 150', 1969
Wayne Dillon, 210', 1969
Francis Wilson, 160', 1969
Paul Bartlett, 140', 1970
Robert Causey, 180', 1970
Bud Sims, 300', 1970
Fred Schmidt, 150', 1970
John Cruselle, 180', 1971
Frank Martz, 300', 1971
Robert Vaughn, 200', 1971
Doug Deurloo, 150', 1971
Ray Elman, 260', 1972
Alex Nesbitt, 200', 1972
Thomas Cranmer, 200', 1972
Paul Dietrich, 240', 1972
Dan Cole, 220', 1972
Rich Broman, 140', 1972
Stephen Millott, 250', 1973
Christine Millott, 250', 1973
John Bockerman, 250', 1973
Gordon Roberts, 250', 1973
William Smith, 200', 1973
Melvan Tillman, 150', 1973
James Waddington, 140', 1973
Robert Wyatt, 210', 1973
Deane Valentine, 190', 1973
George Van de Nord, 190', 1973
Paul Reinholm, 170', 1974
Unidentified, 200', 1974
Dana Turner, 290', 1974
Charles Barone, 180', 1975
Daniel Howard, 180', 1975
Steve Herman, 180', 1975
Mike Goddard, 170', 1976
Arthur Williamson, 140', 1976
Sven Sorenson, 140', 1976
William Wood, 180', 1978
Carl Miles, 180', 1978
Terry Collins, 260', 1981
James Bentz, 260', 1981
Bill McFadden, 200', 1988
William Cronin, 140', 1988
Kenny Potts, 200', 1990
Lloyd Morrison, 250', 1990
Billy Liiard, 180', 1991
Ormsby, John 230' 1985
Feldman, Steve 235' 1991
Soellner, Ed 145' 1992
Rouse, Jr, Chris 235' 1992
Rouse, Sr Chris 235' 1992
Santulli, Robert 220 1992
Sheck Exley 400 ead 1994
Nick Commoglio 450
Rob Palmer 396 1997
Rob Parker 250 1997
Ed Suarez 280 1994
Carl Sutton 280
Legare Hole 240
Andy Bader 220
Aron Arvidson 311 1995
Dennis Sirvet 110 meters
Douglas Missavage 191 1997

So much for that PADI report being all inclusive. There are more after that date, but I have a finite amount of time to devote to finding/ making lists.

Also
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/2522
Dissociation of the behavioral and subjective components of nitrogen narcosis and diver adaptation
Subjective and behavioural responses to nitrogen narcosis and alcohol.

I also suggest reading the 2008 DAN report. 19% of ALL reported fatalities occurred between 120 and 150', with 10 total below 120', and another 10 between 90 and 120. That's a pretty stout percentage. Of ALL the fatalities reported, Trimix was used in 1 case (OC), and rebreathers in 2. END was not reported.

2006 DAN report. 26% of fatalities that had a reported depth involved dives past 100'. Only 6 of the dive fatalities w/ reported gas involved trimix (END not reported again).

Remember my 'handful' statement? There ya go.

Most of those dates are before Tmix use in sport diving. So you've proved that more divers died using air for deep divng when only air was available?

 

[PfcAJ]

Read the rest of the post. The trend continues.

 

[DCBC]

Heywood Day, 140', 1962...Douglas Missavage 191 1997... 2006 DAN report. 26% of fatalities that had a reported depth involved dives past 100'. Only 6 of the dive fatalities w/ reported gas involved trimix (END not reported again).... There ya go.

PfcAJ, all you have proven is the last 50+ years, Divers have died with a likelihood of an increased END. There is no evidence as to what that END was, or the actual cause of death. Also it's likely that the majority of these divers were not trained in Deep-Air. It would be like listing the deaths of non-trained Cave divers who have died in Caves. Would this be a meaningful statistic to the Cave Diving Community? Probably the message that it would send would be to highlight the benefit of training.

I have already stated that an increased END increases risk. So does diving when your age is over 30, if you dive decompression (using Trimix, or any other gas), dive an overhead environment, etc., etc... What you appear to be missing is that thousands and thousands of divers over the past 50 years have dived Deep-Air without dieing. I've done it for a few thousand hours without harm. Divers don't die solely because their END is more than 100 FSW. Narcosis doesn't kill anyone. It can however contribute, if the Diver is unwary and doesn't ascend when he notices the warning signs. That said, some diver's do die because they dive past their safe diving envelope (SDE) that's established by training an experience. This is not just limited to IGN.

If you dive past 50 FSW using Air, you increase risk from IGN. How much risk you choose to take is up to you. How much risk others take is up to them. Risk assessment is an important factor and always must reflect a diver's SDE. One brand of risk isn't wrong and another right. Use good judgment and dive within your SDE. What more can be said...