A Cert Card for everything, including how to tie your shoe...

[Van Isle]

If you've never met someone that could learn "bow vs stern" from a boat diving specialty, or someone who who could learn benefits in gas management from a deep diving specialty, or even someone who could learn that good underwater photography takes great lighting, you've never been in the water as long as I have, in all of my sub-200 dives. There are people out there who NEED this and other levels of education.

Apparently all the people you dive with are born with super skills. Some folks have to pay to play. No big deal. It's a free market.

VI

 

[Viperpilot611]

As a card collecting member of PADI, I find the classes instrumental to my desire to continue diving. The classes have allowed me to try new equipment, techniques and diving methodologies under the watchful eye of an instructor.

I may only have 50 dives and be part of the generation of younger divers, but I would recommend the classes if you are trying something new or more dangerous than what you have done before.

Viper

 

[diverrex]

I really don't understand why it bothers so many people that specialty classes are offered. If you don't want to take them then don't. Some people like them so good for them. It's a very silly discussion. In the old days there were 3 televisons stations and people were thrilled with that, now we have over 500 plus the internet. Things change.

 

[leabre]

Without reading past page 1 just yet:


I've spoken with various PADI course directors and in their opinion, when I put it to the tone of: many OW divers are not very confident when they get their OW and may not even be adequately prepared to dive yet (speaking of weekend courses). They respsonse is that if the diver wants more experience dives with an instructor, that's what the AOW and various certs are for.

I think it's rediculous but is what is, and, having very few cards I have yet to find myself blocked from a dive except when I need to rent a dry suit or fill with NITROX. Even then, I can get into a jam.

Recently I needed a NITROX fill and I use yellow tape to record the details of my fill (I also have a PADI EAN and UTD Rec2 card which lists what gas mixtures I'm qualified for, lists 32% as a standard gas) but the shop touted following IANTD standards which appearantly has a very special NITROX info sticker that I did not have, he expected, and nearly didn't fill my tank because I didn't adhere to those standards. So even within similar certs I guess there's a difference. I did get the fill after I allowed him to quiz me about various details pertaining to NITROX.

 

[Rhone Man]

There are three potential overlapping circles with any course of training: education, qualification and experience. The best courses involve all three. Many courses, sadly, don't give you any of them in a meaningful sense.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well, by default they cost money, but I still feel there are so many different ones because they make the industry cash. The agencies make the most, but others to make something off of them. I'm not saying they arent 'worth' it, but I just dont really buy the idea they offer them just to make better/safer divers. But again, it's my opinion.

Being in the power equipment business for a long time, it's the same with all the doo-dads on mowers and stuff because people werent smart enough to realize sticking your hands under them while running would cut your fingers off. But some lawyer WAS smart enough to 'defend' the Id10t since there wasnt anything that told them not to do it.

Hey, maybe I'm totally wrong and all the agencies care about are making the Best Divers Possible! not making money.

Of course the agencies are interested in making money ... they're a business, and if they didn't make money they wouldn't survive. What's wrong with making money?

But if people didn't want to buy those classes, they wouldn't be offering them.

Look ... seriously ... the only scuba class you HAVE to take is OW. And, technically, you really don't HAVE to take that one either ... it just makes it easier to get a fill, rent gear, or get out on a charter.

All those other classes folks are buying are purely voluntary ... people take them because they WANT to. Very few, if any, of them give you access to dives you othewise would not be able to do without the c-card.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Recently I needed a NITROX fill and I use yellow tape to record the details of my fill (I also have a PADI EAN and UTD Rec2 card which lists what gas mixtures I'm qualified for, lists 32% as a standard gas) but the shop touted following IANTD standards which appearantly has a very special NITROX info sticker that I did not have, he expected, and nearly didn't fill my tank because I didn't adhere to those standards. So even within similar certs I guess there's a difference. I did get the fill after I allowed him to quiz me about various details pertaining to NITROX.

Interesting ... so what nitrox "standards" does IANTD have that the rest of the industry doesn't adhere to?

Normally I would respond that what you experienced is more a shop issue than an agency or dive industry one ... but some of the attitudes I experienced in So Cal regarding nitrox suggests that the region is still living in the early 90's with respect to recreational nitrox. This is truly odd, because the typical dive profiles in that area would make EAN32 just about the ideal breathing gas down there. When I was on Catalina I ended up using air because only one dive op on the island offers nitrox fills, and you might have to wait a day or two for them to get around to filling your tank.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

All those other classes folks are buying are purely voluntary ... people take them because they WANT to. Very few, if any, of them give you access to dives you othewise would not be able to do without the c-card.

I for the most part agree with you Bob. What I have seen all too often is people going into a LDS expecting to be trained to a level where they feel competent. They take the course only to find that they don't feel ready. Some courses are designed this way. Students then enroll in AOW with the hope of receiving the training that wanted to receive in the first instance.

Personally I think it's about being honest and giving people full disclosure. Yes there are students that can breeze through a short program and gain experience by doing. Many others experience insufficient time to achieve the skill-sets, knowledge and lack the confidence that they require to enjoy the underwater experience. All too often these people quit diving without taking further training, thinking that they tried it, feel insecure and end up leaving the sport.

Some are led to believe that they need to have an instructor or DM with them to be safe, hence further training and the perpetuation of a never ending cycle that promises much, but often just doesn't deliver. Some people don't have an option in the type of training that they can receive and for those that do, they fall for a well-crafted marketing plan, or the advise of the LDS who have visions of dollar signs. It's buyer beware. I know it's all fair in love and war, but it's unfortunate at the same time.

I guess what I'm saying is that people don't always want to take "specialty programs." Many only seek the training that they lack and don't feel they have an alternative. The result of diluted program content.

 

[SkimFisher]

Upfront: i am a DM candidate so I spend a lot of time with instructors and students.

Deep Diving: PADI OW "qualifies" you to 60ft. AOW 100 ft. (when i got my OW it was 130 ft) and as an OW I made dives at night below 100ft with and without instructors. The instructor was just diving not teaching.

I have heard it told to OW students that since they were trained to 60ft there could be insurance implications if they went deeper and were hurt. No idea if that is in anyway true.

As for Solo Diver, the local quarry will not allow solo diving without a Solo Card.

IMO other than having a C card for air, and a Nitrox card for Nitrox, what you do as a diver is up to your comfort level.

Of course if your using a diving business to dive: boat, quarry, spring for caves, etc they have the final say in what you must show.

I thought experience qualified me to deeper depths...

I understand what you're saying - but let's face it, most shops don't give OW the chance to "work" before they start pushing a new diver into an AOW class.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I for the most part agree with you Bob. What I have seen all too often is people going into a LDS expecting to be trained to a level where they feel competent. They take the course only to find that they don't feel ready. Some courses are designed this way. Students then enroll in AOW with the hope of receiving the training that wanted to receive in the first instance.

Personally I think it's about being honest and giving people full disclosure. Yes there are students that can breeze through a short program and gain experience by doing. Many others experience insufficient time to achieve the skill-sets, knowledge and lack the confidence that they require to enjoy the underwater experience. All too often these people quit diving without taking further training, thinking that they tried it, feel insecure and end up leaving the sport.

Some are led to believe that they need to have an instructor or DM with them to be safe, hence further training and the perpetuation of a never ending cycle that promises much, but often just doesn't deliver. Some people don't have an option in the type of training that they can receive and for those that do, they fall for a well-crafted marketing plan, or the advise of the LDS who have visions of dollar signs. It's buyer beware. I know it's all fair in love and war, but it's unfortunate at the same time.

I guess what I'm saying is that people don't always want to take "specialty programs." Many only seek the training that they lack and don't feel they have an alternative. The result of diluted program content.

I thought experience qualified me to deeper depths...

I understand what you're saying - but let's face it, most shops don't give OW the chance to "work" before they start pushing a new diver into an AOW class.

For the most part, this is true ... all agencies emphasize to their instructors the need to promote "con ed" to one degree or another. It's how they stay in business.

On the other hand, some instructors are a bit more "enthusiastic" about it than others ... and, as Wayne so appropriately put it, hold out the promise of skills they can't deliver. This ultimately works to the detriment of everybody, since a person who gives up on diving will never purchase another class or piece of gear.

It's one reason why I try so hard to inform my students not only of the class objectives, but also its limitations. I prefer to think my students can make their own choices ... I just want them to be informed choices.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)