A disturbing PADI rumor

[Spectre]

I heard an extremely disturbing rumor today from my AOW instructor. He stated that the reason the dive table training was pulled out of the books and put into little books was because PADI is intending to remove Dive Table instruction from the OW course. The reason, because everyone dives computers now a days. I have no idea if this rumor is true...

First off. I've done one dive on a computer, and all my other dives have been table based. My computer dive in fact became a table dive because my computer was fried by the time I got my gear off, so all I knew was max depth and time, so I consulted my tables to see how that calculated in [18 minutes over no-deco limits].

Secondly, that is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. Talk about dumbing down a generation. Ok... so perhaps you start carrying two computers. Still... having no concept of pressure groups, or any knowledge of what the algorithms in the computer your using is based on, is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. I've already spent much of my time since taking my OW course trying to learn the why's to what was taught, learning what I wasn't taught, and learning the "other side" to things that I was taught to be fact when in actuality it was propoganda based.

Now I hear that PADI is considering dropping one of the most important parts of OW, I'm absolutely discusted!

I'd like to hear from the PADI instructors out there if they can verify this rumor, or if they know otherwise.

 

[Newhampster]

Just because you have a computer doesn't mean you shouldn't plan your dive before you get in the water!

Put your computer into plan mode. Input your expected average depth. Check the no-deco limit. Input your planned max depth. Find out your no-deco limit. Now back off from that a bit and use that as your default max bottom time.

(If you're in repetitive dive mode, your computer should take into account prior dives and surface interval ... if it doesn't, smash it with a hammer and then throw it away.)

And don't trust your dive buddy's computer or the dive master's instructions either. Look it up.

You exceeded your NDL by 18 minutes.

Why?

How are you going to avoid that serious error in the future?

I was recently on a dive boat where my buddy and I were the last ones up on dive 1. We get to dive 2 and our surface interval was only 22 minutes. The !@#$ing dive masters start with the drill on dive 2 and are getting ready to get everyone in the water. Well, my first dive was to 90 feet and I had picked up a lot of Nitrogen. No way was I going into a 60 foot dive without a longer surface interval. I got vocal. We all slowed down and waited until my dive computer indicated a reasonable dive duration for a 60 foot no deco dive...

Trust with verification...

 

[JamesK]

From what I was told the reason the booklets are seperate is so people can take the "how to" book with them in their log book easier. That way, the vacation divers who only dive once a year, can get a quick refresher on how to use their tables before they do the dive.

 

[Drew Sailbum]

I've not been able to verify the rumor you heard through my contacts.

There is at least one training agency (SDI) that does not require learning dive planning using tables as a part of an OW course. I seriously doubt PADI will join them.

Remember that PADI sells thousands of those plastic dive tables, but not a single dive computer (yet!).

 

[SubMariner]

"I heard an extremely disturbing rumor today from my AOW instructor. He stated that the reason the dive table training was pulled out of the books and put into little books was because PADI is intending to remove Dive Table instruction from the OW course. The reason, because everyone dives computers now a days. I have no idea if this rumor is true... "

It's not. The only agency I know of at this point in time who actually did this was SSI. Is this "AOW Instructor" a PADI Instructor?

Recreational Dive Planner training still is a part of the OW book & course. However, it is an area where some people can become confused. Bearing this in mind, the course is set up so that the student MUST work directly with the Instructor on this subject so that they have complete understanding & mastery of ALL RDP concepts.

BTW, the RDP comes in TWO forms: table and wheel. BOTH versions come with the "little booklets".

~SubMariner~

 

[Spectre]

Originally posted by Newhampster
[BYou exceeded your NDL by 18 minutes.

Why?
[/B]

Sorry... the comment wasn't explained correctly. On the dive, there was plenty of actual time left. It was a gradual descent from 20 ft. to 80 ft, 10 minutes @ 80 ft looking for lobsters, and a gradual ascent. 18 minutes out, 20 minutes back...

Without the computer, that dive is impossible, as would any dive over 60 ft. However, when I didn't have the computer at the end to give me surface interval times for planning the second dive, I had to resort to my single depth tables and calculate 48 minutes @ 77 fsw, when in actuality there wasn't more than 20 minutes under 50 ft.

You can't tell me that you have shore dives with computers that don't blow the doors off the tables for that max depth and total time.

Originally posted by SubMariner
Is this "AOW Instructor" a PADI Instructor?

Yes. He didn't say they had already done it, just that they have been planning on it.

 

[divedude]

Originally posted by Drew Sailbum

Remember that PADI sells thousands of those plastic dive tables, but not a single dive computer (yet!). [/B]

Damm! did you hit the nail on the head.

You have to buy one to take the course.

 

[Spectre]

Originally posted by divedude


Damm! did you hit the nail on the head.

You have to buy one to take the course.

Mine came in my crew pack. If they take it out of the crew pack and don't change the price, they actually save money. I didn't have to buy the table seperately.

 

[padiscubapro]

Personally I don't think PADI will remove tables anytime in the near future. PADI's DSAT spent alot of money developing tables and they sell lots of dive tables seperate from the crew pack, not to mention the 32% and 36% tables used in the nitrox class.. Table use is an essential skill when planning nitrox dives, sure you can blindly follow a computer but its best to plan ahead.

SDI doesn't require tables, but requires dive computer training, If you are going to take the TDI nitrox class you will have to know tables..

ANDI does require the teaching of tables but doesn't require them to be TESTED (in the ow program). Anyone continuing with ANDI any of the nitrox or technical classes they will be heavily tested there also many ANDI Ow students opt for the safeair sportdiver rating in conjunction to OW so testing is done there..

 

[Walter]

funky__monks,

Try to be fair. There's no reason to get upset over a rumor. If it later turns out to be true then would be the time to get upset. Get upset over real issues - there are certainly enough of them around.

"I've already spent much of my time since taking my OW course trying to learn the why's to what was taught, learning what I wasn't taught, and learning the "other side" to things that I was taught to be fact when in actuality it was propoganda based."

Good for you. I'm interested in hearing what was left out of your class that you believe should have been included. I'm also interested in what was presented as fact that turned out to be propaganda.

"or any knowledge of what the algorithms in the computer your using is based on, is the most asinine thing I've ever heard."

It is my guess that most divers regardless of what course they went through fall in that category. What per centage of divers do you think understand half-times, compartments, M values or the difference between Haldanian, modified Haldanian and non Haldanian models? I teach a pretty complete class, but I don't cover those topics. Most divers blindly believe it when their instructor told them the RDP is more conservative than other tables when the opposite is actually true. I agree divers need to understand how to use tables, but I don't think they need to understand how they are designed.

48 minutes at 80 ft (there is no 77 ft on the tables) gives you a 23 minute decompression stop at 10 ft on the YMCA tables. On the DCIEM tables you need 5 minutes at 20 ft and 10 minutes at 10 ft. NASDS gives you 19 minutes at 15 ft The RDP and the MDEA tables won't even give you info for blowing the tables by that much, PDIC gives you 10 at 10, NAUI gives you 10 at 15, BSAC only requires 3 at 6 meters (20 ft).

I went through that to ask how understanding the tables helped you on that dive? Seems to me you ignored the tables and blindly followed your computer.

I could be wrong, but I don't expect PADI to remove tables from its standards. If they did, how would not understanding table use make a diver less safe than the example you used of yourself diving a computer when you do know how to use tables?

padiscubapro,

"PADI's DSAT spent alot of money developing tables"

I have no numbers, but don't you think they've turned a profit on that deal yet? They started selling the RDP back in 1988. They've sold lots of tables in 14 years. They were getting hit by bent divers with product liability law suits for selling US Navy Tables. Lots of folks were pushing the tables and getting bent - especially on repetitive dives. I never did understand their response - they came out with tables that were more conservative on the first dive and much more liberal on repetitive dives. Other agencies saved the research money and merely backed off the US Navy Tables which resulted in more conservative tables than either the US Navy or the RDP. Kinda makes you wonder........