A FB friend posted his brother died today in Ginnie Springs

[gianaameri]

He brought the tank ( the 02 ) thinking it was the air filled ...

What actual evidence do you have to support your statement (and that of the buddies) above?

---------- Post added August 28th, 2013 at 02:53 AM ----------

 

[lv2dive]

What actual evidence do you have to support your statement (and that of the buddies) above?.

Not to speak for imasinker, but I find it incredibly cold-hearted that you are demanding "actual evidence" from someone who was very good friends with Carlos. If after speaking with everyone involved, *they* are satisfied as to the "facts" and "evidence" exactly why do you feel the need to continue this harangue?

 

[gianaameri]

Not to speak for imasinker, but I find it incredibly cold-hearted that you are demanding "actual evidence" from someone who was very good friends with Carlos. If after speaking with everyone involved, *they* are satisfied as to the "facts" and "evidence" exactly why do you feel the need to continue this harangue?

Precisely because he apparently knew Carlos well, it is appropriate to ask actual evidence.

I'd further ask if and how it has been ruled out that the last to fill the Alu80 tank could not have been somebody else (i.e. could Carlos have brought the tank to a local fill center and ask a fill of Air or N32...)?

 

[ScubaSteve]

Precisely because he apparently knew Carlos well, it is appropriate to ask actual evidence.

I'd further ask if and how it has been ruled out that the last to fill the Alu80 tank could not have been somebody else (i.e. could Carlos have brought the tank to a local fill center and ask a fill of Air or N32...)?

What are you trying to prove? What will the diving community learn from that information? That we should mark the contents of our cylinders? Already known. That we should test the contents of our cylinders? Already known. You are only here to harass people for your own sick pleasure and as I said earlier, you will not stop unless you are stopped.

 

[gianaameri]

What are you trying to prove? What will the diving community learn from that information? That we should mark the contents of our cylinders? Already known. That we should test the contents of our cylinders? Already known. You are only here to harass people for your own sick pleasure and as I said earlier, you will not stop unless you are stopped.

I'll stop now.

The diving community (at least a small portion represented on internet forums) seems incapable of objective accident analysis and objectively looking at available peer reviewed scientific data.

That is how myths are created and propagated, and we are unable to learn and move forward.

To answer your specific questions above - I think you are missing the point (i.e. lessons to be learned).

The lesson to be learned is that those who dive as a Team and plan to share gas should perform Team Gas Analysis.

Team Gas Analysis would have prevented the Carlos fatality no matter what the circumstances have actually been causing this Alu80 to poison Carlos.

The new NACD guidelines pretty much sum up the lessons to be learned.

Last post in this topic/thread. Anybody who wants to chat about the elusive "O2 Narcosis" at rec depths Skype me at gianaameri .

 

[ScubaSteve]

To answer your specific questions above - I think you are missing the point (i.e. lessons to be learned).

The lesson to be learned is that those who dive as a Team and plan to share gas should perform Team Gas Analysis.

Team Gas Analysis would have prevented the Carlos fatality no matter what the circumstances have actually been causing this Alu80 to poison Carlos.

I missed no point. Nor did anybody else. We know all this and knew it as soon as the details became available (day of / day after the accident). No good has come from the constant harassment of people since then. Maybe we can all move on now. And if a discussion of the narcotic effects of O2 is to be had, then feel free to start a thread about it. It has nothing to do with the errors made in this incident so it has no place in this thread.

 

[flots am]

The lesson to be learned is that those who dive as a Team and plan to share gas should perform Team Gas Analysis.

That would have reduced the chances of diving the wrong gas by half, if you assume a purely statistical model. However the chances of the buddy actually verifying the analysis aren't based on statistics, but various psychological factors.

With two experienced divers, if the diver who brought the gas, had already labelled it and supposedly analyzed it, it's unlikely the buddy would re-analyze it.

A broken protocol is still broken if two people break it.

The real problem is that even in situations where mistakes are potentially fatal, people still become complacent.

flots.

 

[gianaameri]

The chances of the buddy actually verifying the analysis aren't based on statistics, but various psychological factors.

In Florida cave dive shops people are observed picking up their N32 without analysing it and putting it in the booth. Then, off the booth at the dive site, and no sight of an analyser. People seem to assume that if they ask N32, they get N32. The DIR are the only exception with their gases analysed and labelled methodically.

If that is the mentality, not a chance Team Gas Analysis will sink in.

Even if that were not the mentality, not a chance it will sink in until a new generation of divers is trained under new protocols and these new protocols are widely adopted in line to the NACD recommendations.

As can be seen from the reaction to the NACD new recommendations in internet forums, people prefer to reject them, rather than absorb them.

NACD has set the lead in respect of Team Gas Analysis, let us see which Training Agencies will follow (if any).

Well done NACD!

I felt a positive note and some compliments to the NACD was important to close my participation to this thread.

 

[chrpai]

In Florida cave dive shops people are observed picking up their N32 without analysing it and putting it in the booth. Then, off the booth at the dive site, and no sight of an analyser. People seem to assume that if they ask N32, they get N32. The DIR are the only exception with their gases analysed and labelled methodically.

Sigh... not touching that.

As can be seen from the reaction to the NACD new recommendations in internet forums, people prefer to reject them, rather than absorb them.

I reject only the universal aspect of the recommendation. It doesn't always make sense outside of the context of mixed gas diving.

 

[MMM]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

The side discussion on narcosis properties of different gases has been split off and moved here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...4199-narcosis-properties-different-gases.html Many of the posts addressed both this subject AND the diver death; I tried to split each post into the appropriate threads, so as not to remove any content entirely, while avoiding duplication as much as possible. However, thread splits of this nature are difficult to do and are very time consuming. Please stay on topic and abide by the rules of this forum. Marg, SB Senior Moderator

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