Accepting Responsibility for Your Own Safety

[Pauly854]

Personally, I have no problem if someone wants to dive with a DM. If it makes you feel more comfortable, knock yourself out. I think the problem with the original thread that you referenced, and the issues that most of those commenting had a problem with, are that the divers in question were totally relying on the DM to protect them. I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. They can provide a valuble service showing the sights, best entry/exit, being a buddy to a solo...but you cannot rely on them to keep you safe! The original thread suggested that they "should lose their license" because the DM didn't "check our air pressure". If you agree that someone else should keep tabs on your air for you, then there is a serious problem. Bottom line: A DM should be nothing more than a very good dive buddy. Someone to dive with that knows what they are doing, is experienced, and can help you if you need it. The same things you should look for in a non-professional dive buddy. That is my humble 2 cents.

 

[AfterDark]

I can't relate to this at all. There were no DM's when I started diving. Are they important to a new diver? Why? I haven't gone on many charters but I couldn't tell you who the DM's were on any of those charters.

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

You guys are completely missing the point of my OP.

A new diver who wants a DM to go on his dives with him to watch out for his safety is smart.

That's all I'm saying.

But every time a newby posts something like that, you guys instantly pounce. "You're not accepting responsibility for your own safety." No. It's just the smart thing to do.

When I returned from Cozumel yesterday and told my wife about the swim-throughs and diving the walls, she asked, "Did you have a DM with you?" I replied, "Yes." She said, "Good."

Do you think she asked that because she thinks I'm incompetent? No. She asked it because she loves her husband.

I don't care how well qualified you are as a newby with 22 dives to take care of yourself. With only 22 dives you're not as safe in the water as someone with 300 dives, and you're not as safe in the water without a DM than you would be if you were in the water with a DM watching out for your safety.

Now, having said that, if you say that the newby who doesn't feel completely safe in the water without the DM didn't get adequate training, then what would you have him do? Stop diving? Go back and retake OW and AOW? No. He needs more experience diving, that's all. And how should he get that experience? Without a DM or with a DM? With a DM, of course!

It's weird, it's as if none of you read my OP.

Or maybe we're speaking different languages.

The way you're all responding to my OP just proves what I've always suspected, and that's that you don't really have a point to make so much as love criticizing people for their incompetence.

Get a life.

No one is beating you up, you asked for opinions and you got it, you shouldn't get upset because most don't agree with you. As a newbie myself, after my training dives I have never felt like I need a DM for my safety, that has always been my responsibility, but I also think my safety is always my responsibility unless it's beyond my control. If you feel like you need a DM all the time, then maybe you should go take private instructions, and keep paying until you feel comfortable, are willing to always pay for a DM to be with you, or stop diving all together. Do you dive in lakes in quarry's? If so, do you have a DM with you then? As for your wife, since she's not a diver, how does she know about DM, and feel she needs to ask you that question?

 

[Griffo]

I have so many conflicting thoughts about this thread...

On one hand I can understand Matt's original point to some extent. I'm only a relatively new diver myself, and can remember shortly after my OW cert where I would simply not have felt comfortable diving an unfamiliar site without a more experienced diver somewhere close. It's easy to say "oh but your OW cert should have made you competent to dive independantly". But the fact is, in my first dives after OW, I didn't feel 100% comfortable doing so. Even after doing my NAV course, I didn't feel comfortable actually being 100% responsible for all navigational requirements. Blame my training, blame me, whatever - I do remember feeling far more comfortable with a DM or diveguide along. And lets be honest, if you've done your first however many dives in warm, clear water, and are suddenly on a site with limited vis and cold water, I think NOT having a more experienced diver with you is the wrong decision. Locally they force you to do a shallow shore dive before letting you on a boat to do a real dive, simply because too many tropical trained OW divers would get in trouble in our cold, low vis conditions.

People here often talk about the incident pit, or the cone that represents depth, experience, and the ability to handle something that goes wrong. We can't on one hand tell divers not to exceed their experience and comfort level, but then critisise them for hiring a DM early in their dive career to feel more comfortable on the dive. If having that DM means they can relax, and spend more time working on their skills and keeping track of their general navigation, then great, hopefully that allows them to gain experience, and work towards a level of comfort that allows them true independance.

On the other hand, if a person always hires a DM in an effort to avoid having to practice those very skills that keep them alive and safe underwater, then they are simply doing themselves a dis-service. Matt's comment about a DM keeping him safer from a DCS hit worries me in particular.. you shouldn't expect a DM to control your ascent or stops, you should in fact feel confident enough to over-ride whatever the DM is trying to make you do if at any time you think they are being too agressive. Also, if you truly are rescue trained, then you should be in a comfort level where you are happy to "run" your own dives, and in total control of both your and your patients buoyancy. Hell on my training they made be rescue two divers maskless while maintaing a safe ascent rate.

I still like to hire DM's / dive guides when I go to a new country / area that I haven't dived in, BUT still feel confident to dive on in assuming I get a thorough, well informed briefing. I just figure that they are going to point out a WHOLE lot of stuff i'd otherwise miss. But after both my GUE training, and my little "incident" where I needed to be assisted to the surface, I have a level of comfort in my normal buddies that when and if the stuff hits the fan, and I for some reason cannot resolve it myself, that I have surrounded myself with people who I can rely on to save my life. If I was a single diver, without a regular buddy (like Matt is I believe) would I have the same level of trust in my diving partners? Probably not, in which case I think hiring a DM rather than relying on an instabuddy might be the prudent choice. Especially considering some of the instabuddies i've seen of late.

Which is why i'm conflicted. I see both sides of the story, but an too inexperienced a diver to decide exactly where I fall.

 

[FPDocMatt]

When I started diving I wanted to always dive with a DM. In my area that means a Qualified DM (as opposed to a dive guide) that lead a group of people around the site, would keep tabs of them and question their air, and dictate the duration of the dive.

Yes. It's like when you first get a driver's license. There's a period of time when you have a training license, and aren't supposed to drive without an experienced driving in the car with you.

I don't think anybody who has only done OW is qualified to dive without a DM. Not me, and not anybody else either. And SB members are welcome to tell me I'm incompetent, or dumb, or didn't pay attention in class, etc. But I disagree. Nobody fresh out of driver's ed is qualified to drive with only another fresh driver, and nobody fresh out of OW is qualified to dive only with another new OW graduate buddy.

And even if I said that everybody who graduates OW is qualified to dive only with a buddy, then I would still say that it's safer to do so with a DM. Does this mean I'm not accepting responsibility for my own safety? I don't think so. In fact, it means I'm accepting more responsibility for my own safety than someone who thinks that, because he's finished OW, he doesn't need a DM.

I have seen people on this thread giving Matt a hard time on not accepting responsibility, but haven't heard what he actually expects from a DM. Matt, what to you rely on a DM for? What do you expect, and what do you hope they would do for you if you found yourself in trouble?

At Cozumel this week my DM suggested I add air to or subtract air from my BC a couple of times when I was finning a lot to maintain my buoyancy. That advice was well taken. He also helped me locate my buddy when I forgot to keep track of where he was and misplaced him a couple of times. At one point along a wall I inadvertently descended from 80 to 97 feet rather quickly, and my buddy (not the DM) swam down and grabbed me before I had descended further. I knew I was at 97 feet, and I was watching my computer. But it probably wasn't a good idea to be down there when the rest of the group was at 80. At no time did I feel in any danger, and at no time did I feel that the DM was really necessary for my safety. But I don't think that it's a bad idea to have the DM there just in case. And when I say I'm not qualified to guarantee my own safety, I mean that I might easily have made a mistake. Losing track of my buddy was a mistake that could prove fatal, though perhaps not when you're swimming in a group. Fatal for my buddy perhaps. That's not good. And I shouldn't have done it. But I did. What if a down-current had caught me on the wall and taken me down to 120 feet? Lots of things could happen where a DM would be good to have around, it seems to me. Especially for a newby like me. Does this mean I shouldn't be diving? No. It just means that somebody with my experience is safer with a DM watching out for him.

 

[DevonDiver]

I don't think anybody who has only done OW is qualified to dive without a DM. Not me, and not anybody else either.

That's your personal opinion. However, I don't think it's particularly fair to express an opinion that encompasses the competence of other divers, especially when you don't know those people.

PADI... the WRSTC.. and the scuba industry in general disagree with you. In that disagreement, they have an awful lot of statutory and liability support around the globe. As illustration, I've yet to hear of a legal ruling anywhere in the world that judged PADI et al to be incompetent at training divers, based upon the agreed standards of the courses they provide.

PADI, and other agencies DO have a training level that requires in-water professional supervision - "Scuba Diver". Perhaps you'd have been more comfortable getting qualified at that level, rather than accepting full Open Water certification?

As it stands, the Open Water course creates a diver who is certified to "dive with an equal or greater qualified buddy, independent of professional supervision".

Again... if you drastically disagree with that (it's stated in the manual)... then one has to question why you didn't raise the issue of 'a failure to achieve course goals' with your instructor at the time of certification....

 

[ScubaSteve1962]

I have so many conflicting thoughts about this thread...

On one hand I can understand Matt's original point to some extent. I'm only a relatively new diver myself, and can remember shortly after my OW cert where I would simply not have felt comfortable diving an unfamiliar site without a more experienced diver somewhere close. It's easy to say "oh but your OW cert should have made you competent to dive independantly". But the fact is, in my first dives after OW, I didn't feel 100% comfortable doing so. Even after doing my NAV course, I didn't feel comfortable actually being 100% responsible for all navigational requirements. Blame my training, blame me, whatever - I do remember feeling far more comfortable with a DM or diveguide along. And lets be honest, if you've done your first however many dives in warm, clear water, and are suddenly on a site with limited vis and cold water, I think NOT having a more experienced diver with you is the wrong decision. Locally they force you to do a shallow shore dive before letting you on a boat to do a real dive, simply because too many tropical trained OW divers would get in trouble in our cold, low vis conditions.

People here often talk about the incident pit, or the cone that represents depth, experience, and the ability to handle something that goes wrong. We can't on one hand tell divers not to exceed their experience and comfort level, but then critisise them for hiring a DM early in their dive career to feel more comfortable on the dive. If having that DM means they can relax, and spend more time working on their skills and keeping track of their general navigation, then great, hopefully that allows them to gain experience, and work towards a level of comfort that allows them true independance.

What's the difference between diving in warm tropical waters with good vis as opposed to dive in cold water with low vis? I should know what wet-suit or if it requires a dry suit get properly trained, I should stay close to my buddy no matter what the vis. What people are criticizing is the fact of thinking you need a DM for safety concerns. An experienced buddy can help you just as much as a DM can, I for one will never become a dive master because I never want to teach anyone else to dive, but I will continue to learn and become a better diver. If someone asks, or I see that I can help someone, I will, but I will never be in a formal setting of teaching someone to dive. Why would forcing someone to do a shore dive tell you whether or not they're fit to do a boat dive?

Yes. It's like when you first get a driver's license. There's a period of time when you have a training license, and aren't supposed to drive without an experienced driving in the car with you.

I don't think anybody who has only done OW is qualified to dive without a DM. Not me, and not anybody else either. And SB members are welcome to tell me I'm incompetent, or dumb, or didn't pay attention in class, etc. But I disagree. Nobody fresh out of driver's ed is qualified to drive with only another fresh driver, and nobody fresh out of OW is qualified to dive only with another new OW graduate buddy.

And even if I said that everybody who graduates OW is qualified to dive only with a buddy, then I would still say that it's safer to do so with a DM. Does this mean I'm not accepting responsibility for my own safety? I don't think so. In fact, it means I'm accepting more responsibility for my own safety than someone who thinks that, because he's finished OW, he doesn't need a DM.



At Cozumel this week my DM suggested I add air to or subtract air from my BC a couple of times when I was finning a lot to maintain my buoyancy. That advice was well taken. He also helped me locate my buddy when I forgot to keep track of where he was and misplaced him a couple of times. At one point along a wall I inadvertently descended from 80 to 97 feet rather quickly, and my buddy (not the DM) swam down and grabbed me before I had descended further. I knew I was at 97 feet, and I was watching my computer. But it probably wasn't a good idea to be down there when the rest of the group was at 80. At no time did I feel in any danger, and at no time did I feel that the DM was really necessary for my safety. But I don't think that it's a bad idea to have the DM there just in case. And when I say I'm not qualified to guarantee my own safety, I mean that I might easily have made a mistake. Losing track of my buddy was a mistake that could prove fatal, though perhaps not when you're swimming in a group. Fatal for my buddy perhaps. That's not good. And I shouldn't have done it. But I did. What if a down-current had caught me on the wall and taken me down to 120 feet? Lots of things could happen where a DM would be good to have around, it seems to me. Especially for a newby like me. Does this mean I shouldn't be diving? No. It just means that somebody with my experience is safer with a DM watching out for him.

Sounds like you should not have diving where you were diving, maybe you should have looked for some easier shallower dives. The things that you say the DM had to point out to you, shouldn't happen to an AOW/rescue diver.

On my last diving trip during the first dive I had on a 4/5mm and a 3/2mm hooded vest, and was weighted (20lbs) okay during the first dive, during the second dive I took off the hooded vest and forgot to take out the weight (my fault) well needless to say I was fining the next dive. Well one of the DM that was with 2 other divers came and told me I was over weighted, I told him I knew, that I forgot to take out the 4lbs, but he wanted to do weight check, so I said okay, it wouldn't hurt. After the weight check my proper weight, it was 16lbs, I knew what weight I needed, I appreciated the help, but I wasn't dependent on it.

 

[ferris213]

I don't think anybody who has only done OW is qualified to dive without a DM. Not me, and not anybody else either.

I wouldn't make a blanket statement like that. If people have been taught OW properly, that is exactly what they are qualified to do.

At Cozumel this week my DM suggested I add air to or subtract air from my BC a couple of times when I was finning a lot to maintain my buoyancy. That advice was well taken. He also helped me locate my buddy when I forgot to keep track of where he was and misplaced him a couple of times. At one point along a wall I inadvertently descended from 80 to 97 feet rather quickly, and my buddy (not the DM) swam down and grabbed me before I had descended further. I knew I was at 97 feet, and I was watching my computer. But it probably wasn't a good idea to be down there when the rest of the group was at 80. At no time did I feel in any danger, and at no time did I feel that the DM was really necessary for my safety. But I don't think that it's a bad idea to have the DM there just in case. And when I say I'm not qualified to guarantee my own safety, I mean that I might easily have made a mistake. Losing track of my buddy was a mistake that could prove fatal, though perhaps not when you're swimming in a group. Fatal for my buddy perhaps. That's not good. And I shouldn't have done it. But I did. What if a down-current had caught me on the wall and taken me down to 120 feet? Lots of things could happen where a DM would be good to have around, it seems to me. Especially for a newby like me. Does this mean I shouldn't be diving? No. It just means that somebody with my experience is safer with a DM watching out for him.

Someone with your experience (OW,AOW,Nitrox and Rescue with 35ish dives?) really should be able to manage the things you described above. You really can't rely on others to help with buoyancy control, buddy contact and depth. If you were my buddy I would suggest working hard on your awareness underwater.

When your buddy grabbed you at 97 feet, were you still descending? Do you feel narcosis could have been a factor?

 

[Griffo]

What's the difference between diving in warm tropical waters with good vis as opposed to dive in cold water with low vis? I should know what wet-suit or if it requires a dry suit get properly trained, I should stay close to my buddy no matter what the vis. .

The difference? Absolutely massive, but that's going off topic. My point that was if diving in conditions that are unfamiliar to you - whether cold, low vis, high current, drift, whatever - that I can see the sense in hiring a DM to accompany you while you gain experience in that unfamiliar environment. I did my OW in high vis, warm, zero current environments. Technically that allows me to go anywhere in the world and jump in and complete a dive. But if i'd dropped off the back of a boat to 30m in 1m (3ft) vis, high current, cold conditions, it's highly likely that I would have paniced and maybe ended up dead. In that case, people would have critisized my decision not to hire a DM. So how can we have a go at someone who readily admits they hire a DM to increase their comfort level?

I then go on to rebut that same position, but you didn't quote that bit

 

[Bob DBF]

Yes. It's like when you first get a driver's license. There's a period of time when you have a training license, and aren't supposed to drive without an experienced driving in the car with you.

Yes, before you recieve your licence you have to have an insructor or experienced driver in the car, after you recieve your licence you do not. Diving you have the instructor to train you, after certification you dive with your buddy. The point of training and certification is to have you responsible for your own safety, check the WRSTC guidelines that PADI and others follow.

I don't think anybody who has only done OW is qualified to dive without a DM. Not me, and not anybody else either. And SB members are welcome to tell me I'm incompetent, or dumb, or didn't pay attention in class, etc. But I disagree. Nobody fresh out of driver's ed is qualified to drive with only another fresh driver, and nobody fresh out of OW is qualified to dive only with another new OW graduate buddy.

WRSTC standard for certification:
Open water certification qualifies a certified diver to procure air, equipment, and other services and engage in recreational open water diving without supervision. It is the intent of this standard that certified open water divers shall have received training in the fundamentals of recreational diving from an instructor (see definition). A certified open water diver is qualified to apply the knowledge and skills outlined in this standard to plan, conduct, and log open-water, no-required decompression dives when properly equipped, and accompanied by another certified diver.

And even if I said that everybody who graduates OW is qualified to dive only with a buddy, then I would still say that it's safer to do so with a DM. Does this mean I'm not accepting responsibility for my own safety? I don't think so. In fact, it means I'm accepting more responsibility for my own safety than someone who thinks that, because he's finished OW, he doesn't need a DM.

It is only safer if the DM is working for you. A DM who is the dive guide is not responsible for your individual safety, he is there to herd tourists and point out pretty fishes. Sure he will help you out, so would any good diver I know, but he is not there to be your buddy.

At Cozumel this week my DM suggested I add air to or subtract air from my BC a couple of times when I was finning a lot to maintain my buoyancy. That advice was well taken. He also helped me locate my buddy when I forgot to keep track of where he was and misplaced him a couple of times. At one point along a wall I inadvertently descended from 80 to 97 feet rather quickly, and my buddy (not the DM) swam down and grabbed me before I had descended further. I knew I was at 97 feet, and I was watching my computer. But it probably wasn't a good idea to be down there when the rest of the group was at 80. At no time did I feel in any danger, and at no time did I feel that the DM was really necessary for my safety. But I don't think that it's a bad idea to have the DM there just in case. And when I say I'm not qualified to guarantee my own safety, I mean that I might easily have made a mistake. Losing track of my buddy was a mistake that could prove fatal, though perhaps not when you're swimming in a group. Fatal for my buddy perhaps. That's not good. And I shouldn't have done it. But I did. What if a down-current had caught me on the wall and taken me down to 120 feet? Lots of things could happen where a DM would be good to have around, it seems to me. Especially for a newby like me. Does this mean I shouldn't be diving? No. It just means that somebody with my experience is safer with a DM watching out for him.

Sounds like a one for near misses, It all revolves around buddy skills and how important they are. I hope you thanked your buddy, sounds like you were working on a nark and would have watched that computer gauge to the bottom. Plan your dive, dive your plan.

It's fine with me that you dive with a DM, just make sure you hire him to look after you. Remember, it was your buddy that stopped your excursion, not the DM.



Bob
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A man's got to know his limitations.
Harry Callahan