Accident Analysis vs Emotions

[DandyDon]

We discuss Accidents on that forum to learn from them, and as tightly knit as the dive community can be - even when we do leave names out of threads as required, all too often the discussions touch personal nerves. I read all the threads there, post on several, and as far as I can tell - we're probably doing as well as we can on this.

I just received a PM from another member, tho - who is discouraged from posting on a thread, even tho s/he wants to. With the members permission, I'll post that missive here to possibly discuss the how-tos of posting on A&I. I certainly hope that no one will take this personally nor get into personal differences here - just discuss the idea, please...

I'm not sure if you're the one to vent my frustrations to, but I figured I'd try (your signature says "if i can help" . )

I look to the accidents and incidents forum to learn about situations that I hope to never find myself in. When the thread came up about the latest diver death in Jupiter, it hit home as that is the kind of diving i do all the time, with very experienced divers- as this man was.

I wanted to know what happened and wanted to ask questions about where his buddy was but am afraid to since it seems as if the thread is turning into condolences and "don't you dare question the diver's practices"

(Note: I think it was established that the diver was an experience solo diver - perhaps overlooked but unable to question)

I can only imagine how devastating it is to be involved at any level of a diving tragedy, and hope to lessen my chances of that from what I learn here. But I hate being afraid to comment for fear that people will berate me, accuse me of "speculating" and not being sensitive to the victim's friends and family when I sincerely want to figure out what went wrong and what can be done to prevent it from happening again in the future. Obviously this looks like a heart attack, but what if his buddy had been closer and seen that the guy was in trouble? Can you attempt to save a diver who's having a heart attack underwater?

....and that's my rant for the night thanks for letting me vent!

On the other hand, since I did want to learn as much as I could from and about this particular tragedy, I found this post on spearboard, but chose not to post it to the thread as I dont know what the protocol for that is here. But the Jupiter diver's buddy posted this very informative note about everything that happened and I did want to share. It was encouraging to learn about the tremendous effort that was put into finding the diver as well as get a first hand account without any speculation. I believe I've seen this poster on here as well:

There I did reply that posting a link to the report from another board would probably be more appropriate that copying it here. I have some thoughts on some of this members questions, but would prefer to discuss them openly on that thread. Yet, I too feel discouraged.

 

[lamont]

Yup, if you post much more than condolences on scubaboard you'll be harassed about "speculation". The consistent mantra from a lot of the moderators is to "wait until all the facts are out" when in fact usually they never come out. The best we get to go on is usually imperfect, even when witnesses to the event are posting in the thread. In the absence of a CSI-like inquest from some omnipotent deity it'd be nice to be able to discuss the accident based on the information available -- even if it gets the event in question wrong it may be a perfectly plausible accident that winds up being discussed and ends up saving someone else's life later on.

 

[DandyDon]

I suppose the lack of comments might be taken to mean that the Tos and Stickies in place already cover this...??

I suppose the Report Button as indicated?

 

[PerroneFord]

I've given up trying to discuss accidents on SB. I'm with Lamont. All details are never available, and we don't even discuss things from a hypothetical standpoint to try to learn anything.

 

[lamont]

The problem is that some people do grind axes and slam on the victim instead of taking part in accident analysis. And sometimes honest accident analysis will find honest fault with the victim. Because of the fear of hurting the victim's families and friends feelings there's a gag order, basically, on discussing accidents. The moderators can't seem to determine between analysis which is deliberately hurtful and analysis which is trying to help other divers -- even though its usually painfully obvious to me.

 

[ArcticDiver]

Actually I have to come down on the side of the moderators on this one. As long as there is no mandatory professional incident and accident investigation and reporting almost everything surrounding such an accident is speculation. It is almost impossible to extract fact from that speculation.

Some might say: "But that person was there. They were an eyewitness. They have the facts." But the actual fact is that eyewitness testimony is often not very accurate. Many times what a person thinks they saw isn't actually what happened.

The forum is a contribution to letting people know in isolation that an accident occured. It is a good forum for allowing people to emotionally support others. But, it is way short on factual causal data to help others prevent future accidents.


What is that current jargon? Oh yes: "It is what it is."

 

[lamont]

Actually I have to come down on the side of the moderators on this one. As long as there is no mandatory professional incident and accident investigation and reporting almost everything surrounding such an accident is speculation. It is almost impossible to extract fact from that speculation.

Some might say: "But that person was there. They were an eyewitness. They have the facts." But the actual fact is that eyewitness testimony is often not very accurate. Many times what a person thinks they saw isn't actually what happened.

There was a recent post from the owner, NetDoc, to the effect that the Accident/Incident forum was a vital contribution to safety. It is a contribution to letting people know in isolation that an accident occured. It is a good forum for allowing people to emotionally support others. But, it is way short on factual causal data to help others prevent a future accidents.

What is that current jargon? Oh yes: "It is what it is."

And since there isn't a professional incident and accident authority tasked with investigating scuba diving incidents then we will never get information out of any accident that lives up to your standards. So, because you can't get perfect data on any accidents you'll just refuse to try to learn anything to prevent future deaths.

The world is ambiguous and uncertain and we need to make decisions in the face of those uncertainties and not be paralyzed by the uncertainty. There are degrees of truth surrounding any accident which is witnessed. You can't argue that everything seen by every witness at an accident should be considered false because it can't be showed to be true with certainty.

What you are arguing for is just a gag order about any attempt at discussing accidents done by the scuba community.

 

[ArcticDiver]

And since there isn't a professional incident and accident authority tasked with investigating scuba diving incidents then we will never get information out of any accident that lives up to your standards. So, because you can't get perfect data on any accidents you'll just refuse to try to learn anything to prevent future deaths.

The world is ambiguous and uncertain and we need to make decisions in the face of those uncertainties and not be paralyzed by the uncertainty. There are degrees of truth surrounding any accident which is witnessed. You can't argue that everything seen by every witness at an accident should be considered false because it can't be showed to be true with certainty.

What you are arguing for is just a gag order about any attempt at discussing accidents done by the scuba community.

Ahhh...the old "Create The Horns of a Dilemma" debating technique. And then add in the "I can't argue the facts so I'll argue the person" technique and the debating tactics are furthered. Then you add the "Overgeneralization" technique. The next debating techique is to add in "facts not stated".

Reread what I posted. You've used debating techniques to argue points I didn't make.

By the way: Those aren't my standards. They are the standards in most industries for determining the facts and adopting standards to prevent recurrance of the circumstances causing an accident. In most industries and states such investigation is mandatory under the workers safety rules.

I have long argued for the same Incident and Accident Reporting and Analysis for SCUBA that is common in the aviation industry and as mandated for industrial accidents. Until that is in place we are groping in the dark without fully realizing that we are in the dark because our eyes are closed.

 

[PerroneFord]

Well,

I don't know about the aviation industry, but I am certainly glad the cave community decided long ego to divulge all information possible about each accident and try to discuss it and prevent further death.

Maybe recreational SCUBA will never get there.

 

[ianr33]

IMO scubaboard is pretty much worthless when it comes to accidents. If I want to try and educate myself as to the best ways not to die diving,I go elsewhere.

Scubaboard is predominantly a recreational board and treats accidents in a recreational way. i.e. pretty much ignores the reasons for them.