Accident Analysis vs Emotions

[H2Andy]

Whereas the analytical approach isn't emotional, rather it's just an analysis.

yes, i see your point as well

well, it's not up to me to make the call

 

[Doubles]

i just think this type of partitioning is anal ... Christ, what's wrong with talking about an accident, in all its facets, in one thread?

Because we are not all the same. As I said before why would you deny a forum when you could simply ignore it. I don't go into the Accident forum any more because of all the speculation. If that is what you want go ahead and go there. At least I didn't suggest you loose anything you desire

anymore I find it useless to post on SB

I think I will just stick to real diving, this virtual stuff is not worth the effort

 

[H2Andy]

Because we are not all the same. As I said before why would you deny a forum when you could simply ignore it. I don't go into the Accident forum any more because of all the speculation. If that is what you want go ahead and go there. At least I didn't suggest you loose anything you desire

could you explain where you disagree with me?

i am not sure i see your objection to my comments. i never said anything about denying a forum, at any rate.

(please, dont' repeat what you just said. i undestand what you said. my question is, how is it different from what i am saying?)

anymore I find it useless to post on SB

I think I will just stick to real diving, this virtual stuff is not worth the effort

hmmm... did anyone have a gun to your head while you posted that?

 

[adurso]

I find it very interesting that something so important is being commented on by so few. It's like the SB version of the usual suspects....

We do have more than one professional accident investigator on Scuba Board. If we had 2 forums - one a free-for-all like we have now with the usual moderation AND a real accident analysis forum that was heavily moderated WHY would anyone say no to having the heavily moderated forum. If you don't like that format or style, don't go there, go to the more open forum. But don't deny that forum to those who would go there.

If the heavily moderated forum dies from lack of use - then eat your popcorn and say I-told-you-so. Otherwise whats the harm in giving it a chance.

It would be nice to hear from some SB'ers who don't normally post - but who do lurk and read

Cheers

Steve

OK I will bite; I spent 20 years as an LEO. I was involved in the investigations of hundreds of deaths. There is no accident analysis in law enforcement. A death is either natural, suspicious, or homicide. Suspicious and homicide include suicide (self murder), the ME determines the cause of death. In scuba accidents, as mentioned by others, the proximal cause of death is usually listed as drowning; the drowning may be brought on by a multitude of other factors, but these factors generally do not leave evidence. Thus the closing report on the death is generally summed up as accidental drowning, closed as accident. There may be speculation amongst the investigators, but this is not part of the police report, any witnesses are interviewed and statements become part of the folder, the tox screen and autopsy are included and absent any law violations the case is closed.

I stay out of these threads as a rule because they make my head hurt; you get reasoned well thought out information side by side with "feel good" posts, someone's feelings get hurt and everything goes to the devil. Should there be a criticism of the dead person, perhaps legitimately, the touchy feely crowd jumps in; those who have no clue as to investigations jump on board and slam various agencies, those with their own agenda blame training agency X,Y, or Z......

I could go on but I am sure I have bored the heck out of you already.......

 

[ArcticDiver]

After reading the compulsive swapping of opinion based on lack of information in the Spiegel Grove Accident thread I think I'm changing my opinion. Gee whiz; they haven't even recovered all the bodies yet; let alone piece all the information into a cohesive whole.

Maybe we should recognize that this is the cyber world. Any relationship to the real world is for the most part purely coincidental. Any pretense that most of what is posted in SB Accident/Incident Forum is more than chaff should be abandoned. The few nutritious kernals found there aren't worth the energy to dig them out.

So, leave it the way it is. Let folks pontify to their heart's content and as server space will allow. Rick, adurso; you are right. People just aren't constituted to wait for real information before deciding.

Those of us who would like to know the facts and come to a meaningful conclusion will just have to find another venue.

 

[sunnyboy]

One bit of hypocracy that I don't love...

Conjecture 1 (allowed): "I hear they were tech trained and knew what they were doing. So it was just a horrible accident". Replies all of the "oh yes, so sad" variety.

Conjecture 2 (NOT allowed): "I hear they were untrained, on single 80's. They had no business being inside the XXX (cave or wreck)." Relies are almost always of the "You CANNOT KNOW THAT. Stop speculating when you DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. WAIT FOR THE FACTS".

Love that. Say they were great folks, knew what they were doing and just had a horrible accident, and no-one bats an eye. Say they killed themselves being stupid (and a cave/wreck penetration with a single 80 IS STUPID, IMO), and people jump all over you as evil, horrid and say over and over that you cannot say ANYTHING without the facts.

OK. So if we DO NOT know the facts, then how come "good guy" speculation is allowed but "stupid guy" speculation is forbidden by mass nasty-post?

Like I said... hypocracy.

 

[Rick Murchison]

OK I will bite; I spent 20 years as an LEO. I was involved in the investigations of hundreds of deaths. There is no accident analysis in law enforcement. A death is either natural, suspicious, or homicide. Suspicious and homicide include suicide (self murder), the ME determines the cause of death. In scuba accidents, as mentioned by others, the proximal cause of death is usually listed as drowning; the drowning may be brought on by a multitude of other factors, but these factors generally do not leave evidence. Thus the closing report on the death is generally summed up as accidental drowning, closed as accident. There may be speculation amongst the investigators, but this is not part of the police report, any witnesses are interviewed and statements become part of the folder, the tox screen and autopsy are included and absent any law violations the case is closed.

I stay out of these threads as a rule because they make my head hurt; you get reasoned well thought out information side by side with "feel good" posts, someone's feelings get hurt and everything goes to the devil. Should there be a criticism of the dead person, perhaps legitimately, the touchy feely crowd jumps in; those who have no clue as to investigations jump on board and slam various agencies, those with their own agenda blame training agency X,Y, or Z......

I could go on but I am sure I have bored the heck out of you already.......

Now that's a good post, worth recognition.
BZ
Rick

 

[daniel f aleman]

Well, no one is talking criminal here, just cause and effect. Car accidents have causes, knowing why an accident happened, questioning what led to it, are perfectly reasonable.

 

[DandyDon]

I know it might be a bit anal... but it's almost like a hijack (IMHO) when a discussion gets good, and then you get a string of 10 "prayers and wishes" -

Not to be disrespectful... but I personally don't think the 2 should mix.

Helllooo...??? Announcement, please

There seems to have been a new forum created yesterday....

Passings
Memorial threads for SB members who are no longer among us. Please note: this forum is not meant for accidents threads. Those threads can be posted in the Accidents and Incidents forum.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forumdisplay.php?f=494

Maybe the description needs a change, but it looks like Emotional posts in A&I thread are now been moved to Passings, and some other threads are being moved to Whine forum. It appears that A&I threads can now be discussed without emotional hijacks within the TOS...!

I did not see an announcement, but it looks like action was indeed taken. Thank you all for your comments here.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Please see the "special rules" sticky in the A&I forum for some changes that we hope will make the forum more meaningful for you all.
For those interested in accident analysis, I have reopened the fully moderated forum "Mishap Analysis," which has the more restrictive rules of accident analysis.
Rick