Air 2, dangerous octopus??

[Simtech]

Giday simtech,

welcome, and theres not really any negitives and plenty of great stuff to read and learn from, However i fully agree with scubacultra, you end up spending a LOT of time on here. My wife keeps wandering into my office to remind me to go to bed or I'll be too tired to dive in the morning, bless her little heart.

Well mate you got some of my favorite dive spots inthe world I love your "lil" island...... I have weighed the pros and cons and found some things I hadn't really considered. I think there some very valid points about runaway inflaters leaving you without buddy air..... I love my Air2 and am considering another secondary. Hey 3 regs are better than 2 right. Hey great info keep up the good work CIAO

 

[WaterDawg]

WoW I dint know an Air2 could be more streamlined than a bungeed reg (for getting into tight spots). If you could picture a diver w/an Air2 w/ long enough hose to look to the right and a diver w/ a necklace reg both horizntal and tell me what happens to that Air2? It hangs down, way down.
Sure you could hold it against you but now you lost the use of one hand and the ability to grab/pull.
As RickL said if the necklaced reg dosent fit...there is now way your shoulders are gonna fit. Come on you know this.

 

[Gary D.]

WoW I dint know an Air2 could be more streamlined than a bungeed reg (for getting into tight spots). If you could picture a diver w/an Air2 w/ long enough hose to look to the right and a diver w/ a necklace reg both horizntal and tell me what happens to that Air2? It hangs down, way down.
Sure you could hold it against you but now you lost the use of one hand and the ability to grab/pull.
As RickL said if the necklaced reg dosent fit...there is now way your shoulders are gonna fit. Come on you know this.

Everyone is still missing the point.

There is no way your going to get inside a car window with all that stuff on and you don't have to. In goes the head and ONE shoulder and arm just far enough to reach someone. I don't care if you are 90 or 900 pounds it will and does work.

Having something that might come lose around your neck is a bad idea for stuff like that. To big a chance for knocking it lose and getting it hung up on car parts.

I don't have a lot of neck and with something there I look forward or up and not down.

Like I said earlier I don't like an AIR II for PSD. But the AIR II can only hang as far as your BC dump hose will let it. If you have an 18" dump and a 36" LP hose you will just have a BIG loop in the LP hose. The AIR II will still be in about the same location. Again they are fine for most "sport divers".

My Octo is inline on the BC LP hose and it doesn't matter if the BC is connected or not, one will work without the other.

Something else about having stuff hanging here and there is in some entanglement areas we tuck everything into the BC. That along with under arm hoses gets you real slick.

Gary D.

 

[MikeFerrara]

On a non-PSD note...

We go through some pretty tight stuff in wrecks and caves with bungied backups. When squeezing through stuff my dry suit inflator becomes a problem before the bungied backup. By tight, I mean the kind of tight where you have to dump all the gas from the bc and the dry suit and pull or push yourself through.

For real tight stuff when diving side mount I've seen regs bungied around the neck (some have both regs rigged that way) and I've seen diver clip them high on the shoulder to make sure they don't drag em going through small stuff.

Obviously those systems aren't meant for a configuration utilizing a full face mask where the backup may need to be donated.

 

[Gary D.]

On a non-PSD note...

We go through some pretty tight stuff in wrecks and caves with bungied backups. When squeezing through stuff my dry suit inflator becomes a problem before the bungied backup. By tight, I mean the kind of tight where you have to dump all the gas from the bc and the dry suit and pull or push yourself through.

For real tight stuff when diving side mount I've seen regs bungied around the neck (some have both regs rigged that way) and I've seen diver clip them high on the shoulder to make sure they don't drag em going through small stuff.

Obviously those systems aren't meant for a configuration utilizing a full face mask where the backup may need to be donated.

It just dawned on me why we aren't closing ground here.

For RECOVERY you have all the time in the world to get the job done. Just like wreck or cave diving. Take your time and thread the needle using what you need to use.

I have been talking RESCUE which is well over 50% or what we do and 0% for a big percentage of teams out there.

If it is a car that goes in the drink and a door won't open I spring punch it. Then in and out with however many I can handle, 2 max., and surface. The most I have had at once out of a car was 6 adults.

Most of us have dented the door above the window with a valve hit getting in. Things happen fast they have to be done on instinct.

One we had a few years ago, in Fernan Lake again, is a good example on how we work.

Vehicle goes in with 5 teens in it. A vehicle following watches and calls 911 on a cell phone. We roll and it's 12+ miles for me to cover after getting out of bed. During that time 4 get out but the fifth, the driver, is missing. We get on scene I'm second in to the car. Doors won't open now as the car has settled into the silt. Punch a front window, no good. Punch a rear window and we get him. A few seconds to the surface and off to the hospital with a crew working on him.

Total time from accident to hospital about 6 miles away, 42 minutes.

After raising the vehicle investigators were trying to figure where some unusual dents above the windows came from. It was from our valves hitting the body. Not all that hard of hits, just that the bodies are not all that strong.

We don't take time to hook up a lot of stuff and a neck reg is not going to get hooked even if we used them. As it is I Zip up, clip my computer, and hook "1" BC strap. It depends on how far I have to go from car to water as when my suit inflator gets hooked up. If I have some distance to cover it gets hooked early. If it is just a few feet it will get hooked on my way down or not at all depending on the depth. In Fernan Lake is shallow so it may or may not get hooked up at all.

I think this is why we are not on the same sheet of music.

Gary D.

 

[JDostal]

Interesting Gary...I see why now it would definitely be desirable to not have the extra things to hang on yourself.

 

[divewench]

I use one and don't think they are dangerous....unless you use one, don't carry an octopus, and wear a full face mask. The local dive rescue team dives this setup. Seems fine to me if they are out on mission, on a rope, and have a full team on shore. However, I have seen them dive as individuals (recreationally), and they still use this setup. I guess if I were to of run out of air I was supposed to suckle their air 2 while wrapping myself around them. And if they ran out of air they are going to be able to safely ascend with me without benefit of a mask. I dove with one of them in this setup several times without noticing the issue because I thought their participation in public safety diving meant they were safe divers and didn’t question their rig. After more studying and experience, I suddenly recognized the problem, and tried to talk with their head honcho about it while watching them do a recreational dive one day. He yelled and hollered that I didn't know what the hell I was talking about, that it was perfectly safe and that as a beginner (30 ish dives at that time) I shouldn't even be considering "rescuing" anyone by sharing my air supply. When I asked what I should do if someone came up trying to take it from me without my offering, he responded that I should dive only in places where there aren't any other beginner divers around so that that couldn’t happen. Wonder where I go to find beginner dive spots without any beginners around. Actually when his dive buddy hadn’t turned on his air before entering the water, what the dive lead on the team did was to perform an emergency ascent to the surface with his buddy in tow. When telling the story he made his buddy out to be a dip for not doing his own emergency ascent on himself. It seemed to me that turning on his air, or giving him an octo would have been much safer for all parties involved. Should of known when he told me that Apeks was a “little” known manufacturer that while he was a very skilled diver (ex navy, commercial, etc), it didn’t mean he should be listened to. The one dive I did with his guy he actually thumped me hard in the head from behind to get my attention underwater. It was my first dive with testing out a pony bottle, and I hadn’t turned it on. After trying to take a test breath on the pony during my 15 minute safety stop at the end of the dive, and realizing I hadn’t turned on the air, I dropped the pony’s regulator and went back to my main to get a breath or two. The instant my reg hit the dirt he physically thumped me hard in the back of my head from behind and pointed at the regulator on the bottom. He wasn’t my buddy, and it couldn’t of been there more than minute as I worked to get air and assess what was going on. I never mentioned the event to him, but I think thumping a person while they are dealing with an equipment problem is a way to get someone hurt by increasing their panic, or a way to get yourself gutted at 15 feet.

Sorry, I think I just needed to vent. Still haven't gotten over having a 200 plus pound man yell at me that I was an idiot for questioning him while two of his team members stood silently by and that hard thump to my head. I just stay far away from them now. Its unfortunate, but one bad apple sure does color the perception of the group as a whole. I swing by this forum on occasion to remind myself that Public Safety Divers aren’t all ego freaks.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Sorry, I think I just needed to vent. Still haven't gotten over having a 200 plus pound man yell at me that I was an idiot for questioning him while two of his team members stood silently by and that hard thump to my head. I just stay far away from them now. Its unfortunate, but one bad apple sure does color the perception of the group as a whole. I swing by this forum on occasion to remind myself that Public Safety Divers aren’t all ego freaks.

PSD is a tough job that can be dangerous. It's a job that many do without additional pay. Unfortunately they depend on department funding an guidance in training and that sometimes depends on politics...you know poly meaning many and tics meaning blood sucking creatures? Some of these guys while dedicated and well meaning are firemen and policemen more so than divers. Some die because of it.

I've taught OW, AOW, resacue, search and recovery, dry suit, ice diving, dive master and full face mask along with a few I've probably forgotten to department divers and have often been very dicouraged. This is only the good part of the experience mind you.

Personaly I blame the industry and the department politics rather than the team members. They are understandably put out when you suggest that their equipment and methods are all hosed up.

PSD is a strange mix of resreational and commercial dive methods. Mix too much of one with too little of the other and you have real trouble and I don't think it's a rare situation. Some of the people making some of the decisions for some of the teams just don't know much about diving.

This isn't the case with all teams of course but it happens too often and there are fatherless children because of it.

Some of the decision makers need to be flogged but the divers need to be supported...IMO, of course.

 

[Gary D.]

PSD is a tough job that can be dangerous. It's a job that many do without additional pay. Unfortunately they depend on department funding an guidance in training and that sometimes depends on politics...you know poly meaning many and tics meaning blood sucking creatures? Some of these guys while dedicated and well meaning are firemen and policemen more so than divers. Some die because of it.

I've taught OW, AOW, resacue, search and recovery, dry suit, ice diving, dive master and full face mask along with a few I've probably forgotten to department divers and have often been very dicouraged. This is only the good part of the experience mind you.

Personaly I blame the industry and the department politics rather than the team members. They are understandably put out when you suggest that their equipment and methods are all hosed up.

PSD is a strange mix of resreational and commercial dive methods. Mix too much of one with too little of the other and you have real trouble and I don't think it's a rare situation. Some of the people making some of the decisions for some of the teams just don't know much about diving.

This isn't the case with all teams of course but it happens too often and there are fatherless children because of it.

Some of the decision makers need to be flogged but the divers need to be supported...IMO, of course.

Mike, you hit the nail on the head and you would crap your britches if you were around here for a while. We invite ALL surrounding teams to our trainings but rarely get a taker.

The county to the south of us has a team of, you ready for this? ONE. No certs of any kind produced but he is an team of one. I think he has watched to many Army commericials. They call us often but only when he's not available. Some day it might be when he is in trouble.

Another county came to three trainings and said they didn't need that BS. They knew enough to get the job done without all the formal stuff. They try to be a rescue unit.

Another is all civilian and over the years have lost 2 divers to accidents. Another is a mixed team that basicly lost 4 in one operation.

We train quite a bit and we complain it's not enough but it seems we have more real calls than training. A lot of people in our department have been on the team at one time or another from the Sheriff down. They got burned out between calls and training. It takes some serious dedication to stick it out.

Right now almost half the team wasn't even born when I started with this team. I'm not incharge and don't want to be or feel that I should be, but I have been. The younger members need to be or they will never learn.

I started with this team in October 1976. Over the years we have gotten a large increas in calls, the last two years being a slow exception. In the last two months we have had almost 30 calls and I am proud to say we have "never" had a loss time accident other than ear infections or things along that line.

Sorry to hear about Divewench running into an ego like that. Lots of jerks out there think they are better than everyone else. He needs to just let it go in one ear and out the other.

These teams need to get the "I can do it" attitude put away and get trained for what they are trying to do.

Gary D.

 

[divewench]

Grin....no doubt that getting to where things go in one ear and immediately out the other would make my world much less stressful. Can't understand why it doesn't naturally happen, there isn't much in between to slow anything down