A ScubaBoard Staff Message...
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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...
Could I respectfully request we stop the speculation?
Ken new here? Hardly. Ken is an expert witness with decades of experience in these matters.
While I completely understand Ken's irritation at all the speculation,
it really is unavoidable in these threads.
Show me one accident thread where it didn't happen, and I might believe that a thread like this can even exist without it. Can't find one? Yeah, that's the point.
We all want to know what happened NOW, and we really can't help ourselves from dissecting the incident and tossing out our ideas of what might have happened.
I know this seems thoughtless and careless,
and it must be extremely painful for family/friends of the involved to read later
but IMO, family/friends should probably avoid these threads altogether, and stick with the condolence threads.
In the absence of info, people are going to speculate . . .
And as others have pointed out, there is value in the speculation, if only to inspire such helpful discussions as have already been inspired by this thread.
Post what you know. Comment on areas where you have experience or knowledge. Ask questions about the areas in which you're unsure so as to elicit some good info from others. And if you truly MUST speculate, label it as such. "Is it possible that . . ." reads a lot differently than "I heard that . . ." Clearly label as guesses/speculation things of which you are not 100% certain.
Use the M-quote and save the thot on notepad if needed until you are ready - having read the thread, please.2. LeeAnne asks people to read the whole thread before asking a question. I agree. However, I recognize that as one reads the thread one sometimes sees something one feels compelled to address immediately for fear of losing the thought while reading other posts.
I'll start out by saying this is not intended to read as a slam of Leejnd. That being said . . .
Which proves what? Bad behavior justifies more bad behavior? If everyone else is doing it, we might as well do it too? No sense in cleaning up our act until everyone else cleans up their act?
We really can't help oursevles????? You've GOT to be kidding. To me, this reads like an addict blaming his addicition on the poppy growers. "It's not my fault they keep growing those damned poppies so just give me my heroin and let's be done with this."
More like irresponsible in my book.
I'm not saying don't have the discussion. We should discuss these incidents thoroughly and in the light of day. That's how we, as a diving community, will learn and hopefully avoid repeating mistakes. But let's discuss from a factual basis and when we speculate, let's be clear that we are doing so and that it might not relate to the accident being discussed.
So here's my stupid question of the day: If you KNOW that reading through these posts by family/friends might cause pain, doesn't that place an even higher obligation of those of us who post to do it sensitively and accurately?
First of all, that sounds like "blame the victim" mentality. If I'm hearing you correctly, you're essentially asking the family to avoid searching for answers in an area that purports to give such answers because we can't really control ourselves and might say things that are hurtful/wrong?????
I agree wholeheartedly. I always do try to keep that in mind.How about we keep in the back of our minds that a loved one of the deceased might read what we write and craft our words with that in mind? Doesn't mean you can't still have the discussions, just means you might choose a different tone.
No, it's not too much to ask. Will we always get it? No. Not everyone is a writer. Not everyone is skilled at conveying information in the tone they want. Message boards are notorious for being hotbeds of misstated points and misimplied emotions. I happen to be a writer, and I think I'm pretty good at getting my points across...but clearly even *I* can't always do it right. Just look at how much you misread in my own post. What about people who love to dive, but are not particularly strong with the English language?Don't lose sight of the fact that many times, the relatives and loved ones are NOT divers. They don't understand what happened or why and are looking for answers and some closure for a traumatic event. They may come here seeking some of those answers. And while the information we provide may sometimes be painful (especially if it points to diver error) is it too much to ask for us to do it sensitively?
And that's how these threads go. It's human nature. Like I said above: fair? No. Reality? Yes. Human nature.We're not talking about situations where it's been a week without info. The speculation starts within hours of the accident happening. Patience is virtue. Even in this thread, read some of the early posts and then read some of the later posts, and see if you don't have two different perspectives on what may have happened.
Because people are shocked, saddened, and SCARED. They are scared that this might happen to them. So they are looking for answers. And they don't want to wait...they want to talk about it now. Fair? no. Reality? Yes.But it's like when I'm being deposed and the lawyer may say "Hypothetically, let's consider that this happened . . ." But why talk hypothesis when you can talk reality?
And some people do post like that. Others don't. Do we really want to burden our moderators to nitpick the compassionate-writing skills in these threads? Not gonna happen.All I'm asking is post what you know. If you don't know and want to speculate, post it as "Is it possible that . . ." and go from there.
Show me ONE ACCIDENT THREAD in which it doesn't happen. Just one. Still think it's not inevitable?But to go back to your original take and say this is all inevitable is simply wrong IMHO.
I'm not excusing insensitive posting in these threads. Just trying to help you to see that it is going to happen, wrong or not. You can rant all you want about it...and that might help. Maybe a few less-sensitive divers will read your rant and think twice before they post next time in an accident thread. But then you've got those 64,000 other members who never saw your rant...and want to talk about what happened NOW.And it's something that we as a diving community need to start finding unacceptable. Let's hold oursevles to a higher standard. It won't inhibit the discussion and just might actually raise the level of discourse.