Alternate reg from the left or the right?

[scuba_100]

It seems that it is standard practice to route both 2nd stage regs from the (recreational) divers right side.
My question is why does the alternate reg (occy) need to also come from this side?

I find that if it is routed from the left side, when you donate it to your out of air buddy it actually faces the buddy the right way up and with no kink in the hose.

Place the alternate air source from the right and you find that a buddy not paying attention will place the reg in thier mouth upside down.

Anyone know which guide lines set this standard?

 

[markfm]

Beats me -- I bought a "reverse" Octo, from Sherwood, so it hands off cleanly. (The LP hose goes into the left side of the reg, instead of the right)

 

[Jamdiver]

Utterly clueless, perhaps a reason for the 2nd stage and octopus being placed on the same side of the reg is that it creates a 'standard' of sorts.

OOA diver will know that he can always find the octopus on the diver's right side..
Of course if you do a proper buddy check with your buddy you would always know where the octopus is..

 

[Doc Intrepid]

It seems that it is standard practice to route both 2nd stage regs from the (recreational) divers right side.
My question is why does the alternate reg (occy) need to also come from this side?

I find that if it is routed from the left side, when you donate it to your out of air buddy it actually faces the buddy the right way up and with no kink in the hose.

Place the alternate air source from the right and you find that a buddy not paying attention will place the reg in thier mouth upside down.

Anyone know which guide lines set this standard?

The following is purely anecdotal, however, others on the board of my vintage may be able to corroborate this with their own experiences.

In 1980 and 1981 'octopus' second stages first began to be seen in California (La Jolla) and NAUI/PADI course literature as widely distributed as (Marine bases on) Okinawa and Guam in the South Pacific. Until that time "buddy breathing" off one second stage had been the standard OOA response. The "octopus" second stage was touted as safer than buddy breathing.

[Secondary second stages may have been in use earlier, but not widely. In a cave class we were informed that during the early 1970s some cave divers used a second second stage on a long hose to allow two divers - a donor diver and an out-of-air recipient diver - to pass single file through narrow passages and restrictions in caves, where buddy breathing would obviously not have been possible. It simply took time for this concept to migrate into the recreational diving realm...]

As you might expect there was little standardization. Divers routed them over either shoulder, there were the usual arguments over benefits and drawbacks to right side/left side routing. Moreover, at first "octopus" second stages had hoses the same length as the primary second stage and were simply left to dangle. By 1984 "octopus" regulators generally were sold with longer hoses and a variety of devices were available to prevent them from dangling (after a few snapped off when they got caught on boats as the diver's entered the water). ScubaPro's AIR II came out in either 1982 or 1983 (or it appeared on Guam around 1982 if it was available earlier elsewhere), and for obvious reasons it was in the "left side" camp. Also, in 1984 Sherwood came out with a "secondary second stage" located inline with the BC inflator, but instead of being integrated with the BC inflator, Sherwood's product put a separate second stage above the inflator on the LP hose - another "left side advocate". But by 1984/1985 it had pretty well become standardized that octopus second stage hoses also came from the right along with primary second stage hoses. Part of the underlying rationale was the tendency on the part of a panicked diver to simply pull the reg out of another diver's mouth. The fact that this happened with some frequency took the debate out of the realm of the abstract or academic, and provided an empirical foundation for the argument that the diver should have BOTH regs immediately available to them, and both from the right side for the benefit of the DONATING diver, not the recipient diver. (You used your right hand to handle your regulators while your left hand - remember? - held onto the panicked diver's harness and/or worked your BC inflator to release gas as you ascended!)

I became a PADI OW Instructor in 1984 for Micronesian Divers on Guam, and as you might expect this topic was hot stuff back between 1982 and 1984! The arguments never really go away, we just find new stuff to argue about!

Doc

 

[D_B]

wow, thanks Doc

 

[MaxBottomtime]

In an OOA emergency a paniced diver is likely going to grab the reg from your mouth, not search for an octopus that may or may not be visible to him/her. Many divers these day are going to a longer hose on their primary reg and having their backup reg(octopus) on a bungee necklass. The OOA diver knows that the reg in your mouth is working, so that is the one he grabs. You would know your backup reg is working because it hasn't freeflowed(you would have seen it), it hasn't been dragging in the sand and you can even reach it without using your hands. The simple solution is usually best. With a five to seven foot hose on your primary reg, the OOA diver has lots of room to place the reg in his mouth without pulling on your first stage. You can also swim side by side back to the surface rather than holding each other's BCs and struggling to maintain buoyancy.

 

[spectrum]

As far as I was taught it's just another one of divings choices. Remember that in dive gear there are darned few absolutes.

The shop we were certified with had alternates from the left and that is how our gear was delivered when we bought there. As you mentioned a left side alternates is best positioned for a donor to use in a face to face and a side by side swim. That orientation worked nice in all of the training settings and in the times when I have been a donor in non panic situations. My alternate hose is long enough to loop around and let me use it right side up if my Blizzard is snatched.

Our Sherwood regulators have primary LP ports on opposing sides so in the interest of having both divers on the best flowing ports this also lends itself to seconds on opposing sides.

I was not aware of oposite hand seconds as markfm mentioned. The opens up more interesting ideas. Keep in mind that many divers also have a drysuit hose and that has to enter into the port usage and routings.

The biggest thing is to understand your layout, to keep up on your skills and review your layout with your dive buddies.

Pete

It seems that it is standard practice to route both 2nd stage regs from the (recreational) divers right side.
My question is why does the alternate reg (occy) need to also come from this side?

I find that if it is routed from the left side, when you donate it to your out of air buddy it actually faces the buddy the right way up and with no kink in the hose.

Place the alternate air source from the right and you find that a buddy not paying attention will place the reg in thier mouth upside down.

Anyone know which guide lines set this standard?

 

[Fred R.]

I'll apologize for the tone in advance....

In an OOA emergency a paniced diver is likely going to grab the reg from your mouth, not search for an octopus

Oh, please! In a real out of air emergency, the panicked diver will go for what he can get. A brightly colored alternate air source on a slightly longer hose is clearly visible and attractive to a diver needing air. If the Alternate has the hose attachement on the opposite side, it makes sharing easier, and it makes controlling the ascent MUCH easier. It also allows the team to head for the ascent point, since the sharing diver has a straight hose and the two can comfortably swim side by side.

Now, before I get flamed by everyone and start an argument, bear in mind that I have taken somewhere around 100,000 people diving, and have had to share my air a couple of hundred times in real situations, not the made up, I imagine, sort of thing that most divers, and training organizations discuss.

To answer the original question, at least one agency, NASDS, taught primary on right, Octo on left. I know several left handers that still use this. It has the advantage of giving the recipient a smooth single curved hose, instead of a double curve, which puts the team too close together and pulls on the mouthpiece adding to the general anxiety.

If anyone wants my opinion, the best rig for OPEN water diving, and I am not talking to the cave/tech crowd, the best rig for a dive leader is;
primary on right
Alternate air source on right, with the alternate having a left hand hose attachment, and a 40" yellow hose. The alternate should be clipped in a visible, easily accessable spot.

Sherwood used to make a left hand alternate, they now will only make them as special order in quantity. Aqualung's Calypso can be reversed, very simply, by any tech.

In a real OOA situation, the panicked diver is most likely to refuse all help and try to get to the surface, fast. I have never had an OOA diver try to pull my primary out of my mouth. Of the ones that did not take my Alternate, I have had them punch me in the eye, claw up my body stripping me of mask and mouthpiece, push me away, and several made it halfway to the surface without any mouthpiece in while I held on and tried to give them air. Yes, all that and more. And no, I have never let an out of air situation turn into an accident, or even a reason to miss the next dive. It is a learning experience for both people.

Fred R.
Profile Info
Instructor Trainer, currently SDI/TDI #864
Dive Shop Owner-Grand Bahama Scuba
12,984 logged dives

 

[Vayu]

Now, before I get flamed by everyone and start an argument, bear in mind that I have taken somewhere around 100,000 people diving

Hey. Thats alot of people

I keep both regulators on the right.

One of the best and worst things about SCUBA is the many different ways it can be done. I respect your opinion, however I do not agree with it. What I respect more is the opinion and training of the divers exploring cave country down here.

I know you said your comments were not aimed for the cave and tech crowd. I am not either one of these. There is a reason they adopted these habits and the reason is because that environment demands the safest procedures. An openwater environment can be dangerous as well and it is wise to adopt good habits early.

Personally, I dive with a 7' hose and I believe this to be the best configuration for both openwater and overhead. If I am out of air I am going for my buddies long hose; and if my buddy is out of air that is what they are getting. Most people have balanced high quality regulators as a primary and unbalanced foolproof backups. I think that a diver getting ready to panic will appreciate the high flow of your primary regulator.

It is a second stage that is guaranteed to work and that is on a hose long enough to facilitate a controlled exit from pretty much anywhere.

Alot of people think that deep divers, cavers, wreck divers, etc have all sorts of specialized equipment. Some of this diving does require special equipment and training - yet more important than this is a solid, strong, and well thought out foundation.

-V

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It seems that it is standard practice to route both 2nd stage regs from the (recreational) divers right side.
My question is why does the alternate reg (occy) need to also come from this side?

I find that if it is routed from the left side, when you donate it to your out of air buddy it actually faces the buddy the right way up and with no kink in the hose.

Place the alternate air source from the right and you find that a buddy not paying attention will place the reg in thier mouth upside down.

Anyone know which guide lines set this standard?

I'm rather surprised that none of the instructors on this board have answered the question yet. It's surprisingly simple, actually.

First off, it's a "standard" that (as you may have noticed) is not followed by all. However, the rationale behind putting both second stages on the right side is that, in the event that (for any reason) you find yourself without a regulator in your mouth you reach to your right side and grab a hose. No matter which hose you grab ... either primary or octopus ... it will have an air source attached to it.

Seconds are precious when you're not breathing, and those extra seconds that you save by not having to think about which side to reach for, or which hose to grab, can be the difference between "oops" and all-out panic.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)