Aluminum vs Steel tanks

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headhunter:
I'm using a 7mm Henderson Hyperstretch. I'm not sure exactly how much lift I'm actually losing at 100 ft. I wonder how I could figure this out without doing a science experiment. Maybe an email to Henderson can give me a ball park for their suits.
I took some measurements on my wetgear at 1 foot, 4 feet, 9 feet and 14 feet in a pool and as near as I can tell, the buoyancy change tracks a bit less than one pound positive of the reciprocal of absolute pressure.

In real terms, a suit that is 20 pounds positive at the surface will be less than 6 pounds positive at 100 feet.
 
headhunter:
I don't know if a lift bag or SMB would be an acceptable method of compensating in an emergency from a DIR perspective. I imagine that if the situation can be avoided through proper procedures, then the answer would be to not get yourself into that position in the first place.

This also begs the question of whether or not your buddy should be considered a redundant system for your wing in an emergency. For this last issue, I'm assuming that you can swim your own rig up, but that a little help from your buddy could save some effort.

I'm specifically interested in the DIR answer on this, since I've made a concious decision to learn the system in its entirety.

By the way, I'm not avoiding using common sense here. I'm just trying to get an understanding from a purely academic standpoint.
You're beginning to approach the various debates that continue to keep this issue controversial. Some of them depend on your philosophy, and how willing you are to consider alternatives. At the heart of things, perhaps, is (DIR) guidance that allows different interpretations (Jablonski, 2001, 91-93). Divers need to select an approach that makes sense given their specific circumstances. Jablonski is pretty clear in his conclusion: "The bottom line here...is that divers should be certain that, without any air in their bouyancy compensators, they are capable of swimming against the weight of their configuration with full tanks and all weight in place. This would allow them to verify that they are able to manage their SCUBA configuration in the event of a bouyancy failure" (2000/2001, p.94).

From a purely academic standpoint, that's unambiguous. Reality requires some application of analysis, however. A diver in a drysuit, with a set of steel PST 130s, one 80 and one 40 of deco gas, and an 18 watt HID light, apart from any other V-weight or weightbelt, will be seriously over-weighted should the wing fail at the start of the dive. Tanks, gas in them, and regulators would result in a negative weight of > ~30 lbs. Very few divers could swim up full doubles and two full stage/deco bottles, even using their drysuits to offset some negative bouyancy, unassisted. They'd load up with retained CO2 before they swam up 100'. Even fewer would be inclined to ditch their $1K+ HID and dump the stage/deco tanks full of gas, if other options exist.

Other options include use of the drysuit to offset some negativity, a liftbag and reel or spool, and your buddy - who ostensibly is not unaware that you've suffered a bouyancy failure. An 80 lb liftbag and reel should allow a diver to ascend the line, particularly with a buddy assisting. One cautionary note; a drysuit alone is often ill-suited for precision bouyancy control - particularly if the diver needs to hold deco stops. While it isn't impossible, if you need to hold the deco stops using a drysuit alone - to offset some 30 lbs of negative bouyancy, it would be a swell idea to try it a few times beforehand so it isn't an 'on-the-job learning experience'.

In a wetsuit your alternative (DIR) options still include dropping weight, using a liftbag/reel/spool, and using your buddy. While it may not be DIR, I'd offer a conclusion that if two stage bottles and decompression stops are in your dive plan, for some wetsuit divers a dual-bladder wing also may make sense. Does it offer greater potential for task loading or failure? Under some circumstances, yes. However, leaving the second LP inflator hose routed but not hooked up eliminates much of the 'bouyancy creep' that an inflator failure might introduce. Should the primary bladder fail, hooking up the second hose ought not to be too much more demanding than donating the hose one is breathing from. :) And holding deco stops will likely be easier using a wing than dangling under a liftbag.

In the final analysis, the concept of a balanced rig makes sense. The diver ought to be able - ALONE - to swim up their rig under most failure conditions. In reality, at the start of a challenging dive, that may not always be the case. But of course, if they are diving DIR, ...they won't be alone. There are sufficient alternative forms of contingency bouyancy available, that each diver ought to be able to come up with one or more of the above options that will work for their circumstances.

Hope that addresses some of your questions.

Also hope you enjoy your class.
 
Boogie711:
People get hung up on al vs steel, wet vs. dry. It's not about that. It's about diving a balanced rig - one that you can swim up in the event of wing failure.

More often than not, the simplest way to accomplish this, especially in warmer water where you're wearing minimal exposure protection, is via a single aluminum tank. But, for example, if you're diving colder water with a 7mm wetsuit, there's nothing wrong with a steel single tank.

What you DON'T want to be in is a situation where you're diving an LP 120 in a dive skin. That's just all bad.

I think you should be considering the maximum depth as well, it wont matter whether its a skin or 7mm, at depth the 7mm wont offer much bouyancy either. I understand that in general this rule applies more to Twins than singles.
For example an OMS LP125 is only 9.5lbs negative when full, with an aluiminium B/p and skin i wouldnt see a problem with this, it is not much different to a steel b/p with an AL80.
 
Thanks Doc. That is really helpful.

I realize that we are really getting into philosopy, but I think this is the best time to ponder these questions. I consider this contemplation part of the training. I don't really want to start thinking about these things when it becomes a matter of life or death. That will be a time for reaction, not contemplation. I believe that how one trains will determine how one reacts under stress when there is no time to think.

Again, I appreciate your help and look forward to the class.

Christian
 
Don Burke:
I took some measurements on my wetgear at 1 foot, 4 feet, 9 feet and 14 feet in a pool and as near as I can tell, the buoyancy change tracks a bit less than one pound positive of the reciprocal of absolute pressure.

In real terms, a suit that is 20 pounds positive at the surface will be less than 6 pounds positive at 100 feet.
Thanks Don.

I would expect this to change from one type of neoprene to another. I imagine that a wetsuit's buoyancy would be affected more or less in proportion to how much air is trapped in that particular type of neoprene. Some suits may trap more air than others, so a change in lift is probably something that would be fairly consistent for a particular model of wetsuit, but may change dramatically across different models or manufacturers.

I sent an email to Henderson to see if they have an answer. I'll post the answer if they reply to me.

Thanks again for your input.

Christian
 
d33ps1x:
Why? It matters when you are at 4 ATA, your suit has little or no ability to buoy you up do to compression and and your wing punctures with the lack of ability to release this non-dtichable weight. Throw in the fact that wet divers, like neoprene dry divers, are required to carry more lead to get them to depth which becomes essentially useless AT depth. Ditching your removable lead maybe will get you back up but once that nice thick 7 mm wetsuit starts regaining bouyancy you are in for a hell of a ride up.

Then you're not diving a balanced rig.

The key is being able to get back up in the event of a wing failure, obviously. I cannot imagine a person in a 7mm wetsuit and single tank wearing less than, say, another 10 pounds of weight. Generally it will be closer to 20.

You shove that, or even a portion of it, on a weight belt, and if you can't swim the whole thing up from depth you lose the weight belt. Only difference with an Al tank would be you'd have more lead with an Al tank.

I understand your concerns, but a steel single with thick wetsuit is virtually never a problem as long as you have sufficient ditchable weight for the worst case scenario.

In any case, each diver needs to figure out whether you're diving a properly balanced rig. If wearing a steel tank means you don't have sufficient ditchable weight in your wetsuit, then don't wear that steel tank. The goal is for fewer general rules and more thinking.
 
jagfish:
Does the consideration of an alternate lift device enter into this mix? A lift bag or SMB for example...
No...Either your rig is balanced or its not...you shouldn't require some odd convolution to compensate for an unbalanced rig
 
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