Scubaroo
Contributor
Actually this is the 300th reply.
Damn! I got sucked into it, I was trying to stay out of this thread! :boom:
Damn! I got sucked into it, I was trying to stay out of this thread! :boom:
And another sale gone, another one down... another one bites the dust!
- Thread starter Genesis
- Start date
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about this, along with the REPUTABLE dealers (Mike can include or exclude himself as he sees fit), who will make noise to the divers who frequent their shops and perhaps even post a little note with some requests, we get some right-quick response.
I enjoy this kind of thing - grassroots organization and exerting the power of the people, through their wallets and voices, is what this country is all about.
Let's see what we can get happenin'.
I enjoy this kind of thing - grassroots organization and exerting the power of the people, through their wallets and voices, is what this country is all about.
Let's see what we can get happenin'.
yknot
Guest
I thought you were only subject to libel charges when you printed lies. Incidently, most lines that forbid online sales also forbid mail order sales. I bet the stuff you see in Diver's Discount catalog is what brands allow on line and mail order sales- Mares, Aeris, Tusa, etc. I also think Diver's Direct and some other mail order companies with brick and morter stores also carry lines that don't authorize internet sales. What their statements usually say is something like "come to our shop for a price on brand Y'.
What you guys gotta realize about me is that I've made my living for more than 10 years blowing up "wink-wink-nod-nod" pricing deals.
When I ran my ISP there was a "wink-wink-nod-nod" deal on T1s. They were all about $1500-$2,000 a month. Didn't matter who you called. There was no "restrictive pricing" per-se, but there were an awful lot of lock-step pricing decisions... not to mention the telco charges which typically added $600+ to your monthly bill.
I negotiated a flat-rate $200 loop charge with TWO competing local telcos - 1/3rd of the prevailing rate - for anyone connecting to us. In exchange they were the ONLY telcos I would let in my suite with dedicated circuit connections. Then I turned around and priced my DS-1 service at $600 a month, and told the customers they should bill their loop charges DIRECTLY to them - I didn't want to either manage or mark up that part of the service.
Total cost of ownership was well under HALF what everyone else was selling the same thing for.
Oh was I attacked for that. The lies told were unbelieveable -"the service is not really what he advertises", "he can't possibly make money at that price and will be bankrupt in a month", you name it, it was said, along with plenty of 4-letter words at trade shows and the like. Of course the nearly-100-competitors order volume took a, uh, slight hit while ours, well, we had to do a lot of construction awfully fast
I laughed all the way to the bank. Once the other guys figured out that they couldn't possibly lie their way out of it any more (after the first few dozen customers are running for six months, the service is great, and we're still in business) then suddenly people started trying to fry the same eggs we had. Some of them got close, and were actually competitive. Others just watched their dedicated business wither and die on the vine. Within a year there were really only three competitive local ISPs for dedicated business service.
I made a specialty out of stealing other ISP's dedicated customers when their contracts ran out. It was a high-odds lotto ticket.
Nor was this the only service where I pulled something similar. We did the same thing with web hosting and personal dedicated ISDN connections, and put the hurt on others there as well.
Needless to say, I was not well-liked for my insolence in the marketplace. But I did make a shiatload of money doing it.
Market pressure works.
I say we turn up the heat.
When I ran my ISP there was a "wink-wink-nod-nod" deal on T1s. They were all about $1500-$2,000 a month. Didn't matter who you called. There was no "restrictive pricing" per-se, but there were an awful lot of lock-step pricing decisions... not to mention the telco charges which typically added $600+ to your monthly bill.
I negotiated a flat-rate $200 loop charge with TWO competing local telcos - 1/3rd of the prevailing rate - for anyone connecting to us. In exchange they were the ONLY telcos I would let in my suite with dedicated circuit connections. Then I turned around and priced my DS-1 service at $600 a month, and told the customers they should bill their loop charges DIRECTLY to them - I didn't want to either manage or mark up that part of the service.
Total cost of ownership was well under HALF what everyone else was selling the same thing for.
Oh was I attacked for that. The lies told were unbelieveable -"the service is not really what he advertises", "he can't possibly make money at that price and will be bankrupt in a month", you name it, it was said, along with plenty of 4-letter words at trade shows and the like. Of course the nearly-100-competitors order volume took a, uh, slight hit while ours, well, we had to do a lot of construction awfully fast
I laughed all the way to the bank. Once the other guys figured out that they couldn't possibly lie their way out of it any more (after the first few dozen customers are running for six months, the service is great, and we're still in business) then suddenly people started trying to fry the same eggs we had. Some of them got close, and were actually competitive. Others just watched their dedicated business wither and die on the vine. Within a year there were really only three competitive local ISPs for dedicated business service.
I made a specialty out of stealing other ISP's dedicated customers when their contracts ran out. It was a high-odds lotto ticket.
Nor was this the only service where I pulled something similar. We did the same thing with web hosting and personal dedicated ISDN connections, and put the hurt on others there as well.
Needless to say, I was not well-liked for my insolence in the marketplace. But I did make a shiatload of money doing it.
Market pressure works.
I say we turn up the heat.
Things change and it isn't uniform. A shop owner I know got into SP by buying only six sets of rental gear. The above dialog was my last conversation with them only it was 17k and some change. Aqualung was 12 or 13. Tis why I don't sell either one. Some manufacturers have fins we want to sell. Some have regs we want to sell. We don't deal with anyone who demands huge opening orders and enforces anual minimums. Note I said enforces. We have recently had conversations with manufacturers about price restrictions that are in dealer agreements that I have never seen enforced. The reason for the conversation was to look for a way to compete. Lowering price does no good unless 1, you don't lose the dealership and 2, volume increases. They don't seem interested in enforcing price restrictions. However they won't budge on the mail order or online issue. We have attempted to get authorization to service certain brands that we don't/can't sell that are prevelant in the area. A shop who was in town for over 20 years sold the same brand all that time. Those divers must travel to get service and are not happy about me turning them away. They no doubt feel I'm trying to force them to buy new stuff. I used to send the stuff out but no longer have someone who wants the work. No dice. Why doesn't someone call reps in variouse areas and talk about opening a shop. Get the info streight from the rep.
Scuba
Contributor
I think the heat is on.
There are online retailers buying and selling dive gear, supposedly operating outside the manufacturers regulations.
And customers are happy and buying.
It doesn't get hotter than that.
There are online retailers buying and selling dive gear, supposedly operating outside the manufacturers regulations.
And customers are happy and buying.
It doesn't get hotter than that.
with Joe Stella, President of North American Diving - Scubapro.
We had a roughly hour-and-a-half conversation.
It had its heated moments, and at one point I thought he was going to hang up on me.
In the end, while we may not agree at this point, he DID hear me out. And I think I made the case well - that SP is actually HARMING their LDS relationships and, if this continues, there might not be any of them to worry about in the future.
I pointed out one thing to him that is obvious:
If I have $1500 to spend on kit, and can buy one set from the LDS, or two sets from LP, Scubapro makes twice as much money if I buy from LP!
If they squeeze the dealers, as they do now, and cut off the grey market product, then their sales and profit go down!
If they leave things alone, their sales and profit remain the same, but eventually they STILL get hosed, because the LDSs all die and all that's LEFT are dealers like LP! That will also result in a net loss.
The only winning play is to get rid of the price-fixing. That will force a realignment of costs and prices in the LDS so that EVERY product and service is priced accordingly - and the "puppy mill" problem disappears.
They have had a tough year. I explained why I think that is, and that driving people away is only going to make it worse.
Next stop - Johnson Outdoors corporate and then Suunto's American division.
C'mon folks, let's pick up the torch.
We had a roughly hour-and-a-half conversation.
It had its heated moments, and at one point I thought he was going to hang up on me.
In the end, while we may not agree at this point, he DID hear me out. And I think I made the case well - that SP is actually HARMING their LDS relationships and, if this continues, there might not be any of them to worry about in the future.
I pointed out one thing to him that is obvious:
If I have $1500 to spend on kit, and can buy one set from the LDS, or two sets from LP, Scubapro makes twice as much money if I buy from LP!
If they squeeze the dealers, as they do now, and cut off the grey market product, then their sales and profit go down!
If they leave things alone, their sales and profit remain the same, but eventually they STILL get hosed, because the LDSs all die and all that's LEFT are dealers like LP! That will also result in a net loss.
The only winning play is to get rid of the price-fixing. That will force a realignment of costs and prices in the LDS so that EVERY product and service is priced accordingly - and the "puppy mill" problem disappears.
They have had a tough year. I explained why I think that is, and that driving people away is only going to make it worse.
Next stop - Johnson Outdoors corporate and then Suunto's American division.
C'mon folks, let's pick up the torch.
Every so often when Congress is voting on something, I get a chain email from one of my friends. It's basically an e-petition with a message and a place for you to fill out your personal information(for authenticity verification purposes). You just fill it out and hit send and it goes to your Senator and/or State Rep. You've probably seen one yourself. Maybe we could get something like that together to send to manufacturers and get it circulating. I may even still have an old one in my email storage that could be used as a template. Something worded by LDS owners and the like (for maximum effectiveness). Something that helps rec divers like myself ask all the right questions and make all the right statements in all the right ways. What other ideas could we come up with?...Anyone?... Anyone?...
There's 8600 divers right here on the board and I know some divers who are not members of the Scubaboard that would get in on it.
:box: :yea: :nod:
:wavey:
^
(this one is Genesis)
There's 8600 divers right here on the board and I know some divers who are not members of the Scubaboard that would get in on it.
:box: :yea: :nod:
:wavey: ^
(this one is Genesis)
I have a petition system that was DESIGNED for this.
I pointed it at Annhauser-Busch once not all that long ago over their sponsorship of something I found particularly offensive (along with a bunch of other people). They, uh, got the message.
It takes signatures, confirms them, and then sends a FAX (batched) with the signatures.
I'd LOVE to do this.
What we need to make this work is:
1. The names and fax numbers for manufacturers that price-fix, along with the contact internally for that company.
2. The text of the petition.
I can EASILY (like in about an hour) set this up.
Trust me, if we got 10,000 signatures and it went to Scubapro, Aqualung, Suunto, Halcyon and others - oh they'd get the message.
One of the most interesting aspects of my call today with the SP Pres is that he told me that he had NEVER heard my point of view on this from ANY OTHER DIVERS in the past. Not once.
I told him he needed to get out more
Anyway, this is not a bad idea. Let me massage something around a bit, then post it as a separate thread for comment here, and we can organize it.
Anyone else up for getting fax numbers, phone numbers (both are important!) corporate and contact names for other manufacturers? We need corporate officer people on this - some company's PR department WILL NOT DO for something like this. It HAS TO BE a director or better, so they have a fiduciary responsibility to report what's going on to the board of directors.
What's even better is that I can add the FTC and Federal Lawmakers (reps, senators) to the list of recipients. You wanna see people get, uh, "aroused"?
I like this.
Let's do it.
Mike, would you post a pointer to this in your shop window?
yknot
Guest
One semi useless factoid I retained from high school civics is that statistically about 1% of a population will complain in writing about an issue. For a politition(sp?), then, every angry letter received equals about 100 PO'd voters. With the ease of sending e-mails these days just signing a chain may not give a full impact. List an address with proper name if possible. I'll spend 37 cents.
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