Anyone else have a problem with a buddy grabbing your primary?

[jh_MacLeod]

What is one of the major things that you and your buddy do before a dive? If you aren't doing a Pre-dive check with your buddy and going over the topics below then you're always going to have two divers who are expecting different things:

So, with that said, if your weren't practicing this prior to the theft of your primary regulator I am in some way glad you learned a lesson to discuss these things with your buddy prior to the dive.

All said, I don't see a problem with you asking a buddy to use your octo instead of ripping your teeth out for the primary but I also don't see a problem if the diver, in the heat of the moment, forgets that you asked that of them.

We did a standard buddy check before the dive and checked each other's octopuses. I even demonstrated how to release my octopus from the bungee. He was wearing a rented BCD and his octopus hose was folded and secured by sliding it up into a shoulder strap sleave. We didn't discuss the issue in any more detail (but I think the plan was clear to both of us); yet as you said, in the heat of the moment, the octopus was forgotten and he reverted to the core belief that "it's okay to take a reg out of your buddy's mouth". What I learned from this experience, and from the discussion of the issue here on the board, is that, like it or not, I need to be prepared to deal with this kind of behavior.

John

 

[jh_MacLeod]

Yes, man, it's to much to ask the panicking person to bang on the tank.

You are overreacting , panicking person does not think. All he sees is the reg that works. Those octo in the triangle is only good when you dive PADI style. It does not work if you trim horizontally - it will take forever to look for that octo somewhere in the triangle or flying somewhere. Which is also probably full of sand

I realize that you can't expect much from an already-panicked person, but I think that most people with a bit of training should be able to handle an escalating situation with some control and with a reasonable sequence of actions.

If I start to notice a problem with my air supply, the first thing I have trained myself to do is to signal the others around me. I typically dive with a small metal probe in my hand, and as I begin to check my equipment for the cause of a problem, I am simultaneously tapping my tank to alert potential helpers in case I need them. This way, they are available to receive my hand signals or already closing the gap between us if it looks like I need help. If I wait until after I discover I can't solve the issue myself to signal, it may be too late.

And my octopus is 9 inches away from the reg in my mouth; well-maintained and working. And it's not that I don't trust the octopus to use for myself. Rather, it's because I do trust it to work that I feel confident to donate it.

John

 

[SteveR1952]

Interesting thread.

My setup is I donate my primary and then use my secondary air on my BC inflator/dump hose. I tell my buddies that my primary is for them in an OOA situation. So far I have not had to share.

But, I did have a LOA situation of my own that ended up in a OOA for me. It was during a AOW class in the open ocean and I had been fighting my drysuit buoyancy at the shallow dive depth. We finished our safety stop and were headed back to the boat by going back down to 30 feet when my reg. started to breath very thin. I was already seasick and had not eaten much in two days so I was not at my best to say the least. The rest of the class including the instructor were 20+ feet away and heading away from me. I had no other choice but to head for the surface. Once I got there neither reg would work as my primary had shutdown. Could not even inflate my BC. I managed to get back on the boat in one piece. I checked my tank pressure and it was 125psig. I thought regs. failed in the open position when low on pressure. Guess not.

Had anybody in my class been closer I would have tried a secondary air. Also, I was a bit concerned my instructor was well over 30 feet away from me when all this happened. This was my second only boat dive in rough seas.

I had the regs checked an the tech said it was normal for them to shut down airflow below 200psig. I have since changed my dive computer alarms to compensate for this and to add 200 psig to my alarm limit.

New gear sometimes brings some interesting surprises.

I will make a point of staying on the hip of my dive buddies in the future (even if they did leave me behind).

Being LOA and OOA is no fun. I can see how one could lose one's sensibilities and training and grab for the bubbles to survive. It doesn't make it right...but it is a more likely behavior than giving the sign and waiting patently for a reg. to be donated while your lungs are screaming for air and panic sets in.

 

[TSandM]

But, I did have a LOA situation of my own that ended up in a OOA for me. It was during a AOW class in the open ocean and I had been fighting my drysuit buoyancy at the shallow dive depth. We finished our safety stop and were headed back to the boat by going back down to 30 feet when my reg. started to breath very thin. I was already seasick and had not eaten much in two days so I was not at my best to say the least. The rest of the class including the instructor were 20+ feet away and heading away from me. I had no other choice but to head for the surface. Once I got there neither reg would work as my primary had shutdown. Could not even inflate my BC. I managed to get back on the boat in one piece. I checked my tank pressure and it was 125psig. I thought regs. failed in the open position when low on pressure. Guess not.

Reading this makes me think it's time to post THIS link again -- Learning good gas management practices is a HUGE step toward safer diving.

 

[SteveR1952]

Good article. In my stated situation there were a number of issues that combined together to create the LOA situation.

* Sea sick
* Just getting over a bad cold
* New drysuit and some buoyancy issues (cert. training vs common practice of suit vs BCD for buoyancy control).
* Shallow dive (mostly less than 25 feet). Added to buoyancy issues.
* Moderate current
* Short fill of tank (3000psig on a HP 3442 tank)
* Moderate to heavy surface chop
* First dive from dive boat into the cold ocean
* Training dive with 2 other students who were having some buoyancy issues and taking the instructors time and attention to deal with them.
* Instructor decided instead of surfacing after our safety stop he lead the group back down to near 30 feet on the way back to the boat. I was already at around 300 at the end of the safety stop. When he lead the group back down I started after them to stay with the group and that is when the reg. started to shut down and I saw I was LOA. I was too far behind the group to catch them so I decided to surface and get back to the boat. On the way to the surface my reg. shut down as did the alt. I swam to the surface and discovered my BC would also not inflate. I had a cramp in my calf, was getting banged around by waves and was out of breath.

Luckily I was close enough to the boat for them to get me a float so I could get to the stern ladder.

Did I mention I was overweighted (as instructed by the instructor despite my own calculations based on prior experience with my own equipment. The instructor had me overweighted by more than 6# for a total of 32# plus a steel tank. That gave me a large negative buoyancy at the surface with no air in the BCD or the drysuit so it was a struggle to stay afloat. I was too out of breath to manually inflate the BCD. Drysuit would not inflate due to OOA.

If I had not been a "follower" of the instructor I would have ended the dive earlier; when I had 700psig before the safety stop. In retrospect, I should have kept closer tabs on my air but not knowing what we were going to do (follow the instructor was the dive plan). I advised the instructor of my air pressure reading when I reached 1000psig. This was before we did some rapid depth changes in shallow water and I had to dump and refill the drysuit a few times to keep my buoyancy under control. This and my struggling with using only the suit for buoyancy control (as required of my cert....long story) used up air faster than I had anticipated.

My fault for not taking full responsibility for my own air management. Being a student helped create a complacent attitude that my instructor was "responsible" for my air management. I did not adequately account for using a huge amount of air fighting my buoyancy at shallow depth in currents. Most of my dives were fresh water and not ocean and with out currents, surge or large surface waves. All this and being pretty sick led to mismanagement of my air supply and eventual OOA situation with too much weight.

It won't happen again and did not happen again on the next dives done on the boat including the deep dive. All it takes is once to get my attention.

 

[Splash-X]

Steven,

All I can say is "wow". When it rains it pours, right? A series of bad decisions and circumstances added stressors to the situation and things just imploded.

There are just so many little things that were wrong prior to the dive like having been sea sick, and having a cold, and first cold water boat dive, less than a full tank, etc etc that most likely contributed to your air consumption. You may have been extremely stressed out and not even realzied it.

I'm glad you were able to make it through the situation but in my book with all the little things prior to the dive it may have been best to scrub the dive. What doesn't kills us makes us stronger by increasing of experience and knowledge so I'm glad you've taken some great points away from the dive.

 

[Cnidaria]

thats what i did with my regulator, its better to be prepared and allow them to do what they will instinctively do, as people's reactions cannot be predicted no matter how clear you've made it to them not to take your primary. best solution to the problem

 

[SteveR1952]

Steven,

I'm glad you were able to make it through the situation but in my book with all the little things prior to the dive it may have been best to scrub the dive. What doesn't kills us makes us stronger by increasing of experience and knowledge so I'm glad you've taken some great points away from the dive.

It was a live-a-board for two days. I was taking my AOW during the trip and we were going to do all 5 dives in So. Cal. waters off the boat. After my first dive (the OOA dive) I did not dive the rest of the day. I ended up doing only 3 dives on the trip and finished the AOW in our local lake. Peer pressure and the knowledge of what each dive was costing can make a person do things that are not the most intelligent.

It will be a long time before my next live-a-board. I know I need more diving experience with my gear before I add even more stress in unfamiliar waters and conditions.

 

[JonBath]

I think the circumstances in which the OoA occurs are pretty important here. Clearly ripping the the DV out your mouth without warning is going to be pretty shocking to you. You could call it inconsiderate by the other diver at least. On the other hand if he's out of air, needs a breath and near panicking surely you're not going to begrudge him a small thing like that. Indeed the question could be asked as a buddy why you weren't more aware of his low air situation beforehand and have been monitoring him and ready with your own primary or octopus or whatever AAS you use.

Perhaps it's just that I've seen plenty of students panick and either claw at someone elses reg or attempt to break to the surface when performing OoA excercises or situations that I'm not convinced anyone actually in that situation would always be calm enough to grab an obscured or unfamiliar backup. I think it's more important for the diver to get his breath on your primary than breathe water whilst you wait for him to be polite.

As for primary/secondary donate, unless you're using a long hose, surely it's dependent on whatever is most convenient at the time and on the divers situation. If I'm OoA I would hope I'd have the presence of mind to take my buddy's alternate. On the other hand if my buddy was out then I wouldn't float around waiting them to hopefully take one of my regs, it would have been in their face ready for them to use. The occasions as a DM when I've had to jam a reg into the mouth of a panicking diver I've used my primary, simply because it was far easier for me to grab quickly and instinctively with my right hand. If on the other hand I'd had to hold them with my right I probably would have used my secondary simply because it would have been easier to supply with my left. Again circumstance surely dictates there is no one universally correct way.

 

[drydiver]

gas management aside, equipment failures do occur. I have seen and experienced it, although I won't go into those sordid details for this post

My first experience was with a GUE trained diver who only noticed my octo was tangled and unreachable after we were beneath the surface. He saw it and thought it would be a valuable learning lesson to give me the out of air sign. I knew he had plenty of gas and assumed he had an equipment failure. I could not produce my octo and panicked, not bolt to the type of surface panic, but once I figured out that was not an option, I donated my primary, without backup, for buddy breathing, much to his shock. Even after he gave me the immediate sign that he was ok, it was an exercise, I was not. I had failed as a buddy.

From then on I sported a necklace and dared him to snag my primary without warning. I have told every dive buddy since to grab my primary, I will be fine. So far, hasn't happened, but worst case scenario, I am mentally and equipment wise, prepared.
D