AOW/Rescue Diver Not Respected

[Lorenzoid]

Your questions are blatantly irrelevant if the check out dives don't include all of those activities... which is extremely unlikely. That is why the check out dive is potentially so distasteful...because it does not really allow demonstration of advanced skills,.. more likely...just minimal ow competence

I have to laugh because my wife and I DO use the check-out dive to practice at least sharing air, and at least on one occasion we had a DM come over and ask us if we were okay, as if surprised by divers actually checking themselves out on a check-out dive.

 

[Aguablanco1]

Your questions are blatantly irrelevant if the check out dives don't include all of those activities... which is extremely unlikely. That is why the check out dive is potentially so distasteful...because it does not really allow demonstration of advanced skills,.. more likely...just minimal ow competence

You beat me to the response. How many check out dives will ask a diver to demonstrate those skills? I suppose we can make up all kinds of questions that have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand to prove some unidentified issue.
Just for fun, here are my answers:
1) Generally once per trip.
2) Too many to count.
3) Generally once per trip.
4) None. I navigate most every dive.
5) None. And since we have been talking about a DM in the water leading dives/checkouts, wouldn't they be the primary rescue person on an issue like that. And since many/most dive leaders are instructors we would be relegated to a support position per the chain of command.
Your questions seem to be more baiting than probative.
RichH

 

[Aguablanco1]

LOL.
The thread is in the wrong forum, for both its intent and its content.

Sorry about that, it is my fault for not checking. However, I now feel that if I had had a checkout post I may have gotten it in the right forum on the first try. Mods, feel free to move this thread to a better forum.
RichH

 

[Diving Dubai]

That is why the check out dive is potentially so distasteful...because it does not really allow demonstration of advanced skills,.. more likely...just minimal ow competence

There is a simple reason, explained earlier. The check out is a get to know you dive. The only skills I've ever had to demonstrate, and now require to be demonstrated is DSMB deployment, because of the area we dive.

For the guide it's a way of assessing things like weighting, gas consumption rates, how people work with their assigned buddies, as well as the diver competency.

You want to balance groups, reliance on just C cards and log books doesn't work. You need to be fair on everyone who has paid good money for the trip. They don't want to be in a group where one person constantly limits the dive. Also it's better that the Operator identifies this, rather than waiting for a customer complaint.

And generally the first dive isn't the only check, just the one advertised. You generally gave a few dives before you drop them into the hard core ones, if nothing else but to allow people to settle down. During these you get to fine tune your opinions and make decisions accordingly

Remember often people haven't dived since their last vacation.

 

[AdivingBel]

I have to laugh because my wife and I DO use the check-out dive to practice at least sharing air, and at least on one occasion we had a DM come over and ask us if we were okay, as if surprised by divers actually checking themselves out on a check-out dive.

My wife and I air share all the time (balance out our tanks). I forget it's not "normal" (we shore dive a lot ). Now when we boat dive, I always warn the DM so they don't get "concerned."

 

[DevonDiver]

Your questions are blatantly irrelevant if the check out dives don't include all of those activities... which is extremely unlikely.

Which of the skills was 'advanced'? 4x OW skills and a Rescue Diver skill.

My point was that most divers don't maintain anywhere near the full syllabus of competencies that they had to demonstrate to gain their certification card.

A certification card which some deem gives them an unassailable right to demand diving services.

Waving the card, but not having the skills represented by the card, is fraudulent IMHO.

Critical skills that were only practiced a few times over a few short days of training.... and then neglected thereafter to fade into distant memory.

So... If someone's been naughty and not practiced the skills associated with the c-card they brandish ... and that's led to their ability dropping dangerously below their certification level... why should they be so complacent as to not believe their actual capabilities should ever be scrutinised?

I picked those skills because they're relevant to the OP's post. Why should any of them not be relevant to a checkup dive? Those are all issues that feature routinely in diving accidents..

Checkups don't just assess those routine skills you use of every dive. They also need, perhaps more importantly so, to check the skills that are predictably left to stagnate through inattention.

That is why the check out dive is potentially so distasteful...because it does not really allow demonstration of advanced skills,.. more likely...just minimal ow competence

A checkout dive should be relevant to the level and demands of the dives that will follow.

I do checkup dives at technical and advance wreck levels ...

 

[Edward3c]

Which of the skills was 'advanced'? 4x OW skills and a Rescue Diver skill.

My point was that most divers don't maintain anywhere near the full syllabus of competencies that they had to demonstrate to gain their certification card.
...
They also need, perhaps more importantly so, to check the skills that are predictably left to stagnate through inattention.

Each year I get a small number of students that assum by turning up they will get lessons signed-off. They're most put out when I explain they have to meet competence standards to pass. These people are normally incapable of preforming the basic skills required.

 

[DevonDiver]

Each year I get a small number of students that assum by turning up they will get lessons signed-off. They're most put out when I explain they have to meet competence standards to pass. These people are normally incapable of preforming the basic skills required.

As do I.

PADI con-ed courses are supposed to start with an assessment to ensure that the student is competent at prerequisite skills. I rarely see that applied by instructors.

Probably because it'd mean a significant number of students wouldn't be able to start the course without remedial training. And who wants remedial training huh? Another rip-off? Lost income for the instructor and disappointed students.

Students are just let onto courses regardless, and have no real chance to progress their skills as they're hamstrung by a lack of necessary ability. So, instructors just lower expectations (and performance standards) so the c-card can still be handed out regardless.

The lack of those assessments really absolves students from any need to prepare themselves for continuation training.

That's why agencies like GUE produce good divers. They assess HARD at every level... and students have to be focused on preparing themselves if they don't want to waste money on failed courses.

 

[VikingDives]

... about a DM in the water leading dives/checkouts, wouldn't they be the primary rescue person on an issue like that. And since many/most dive leaders are instructors we would be relegated to a support position per the chain of command.
Your questions seem to be more baiting than probative.
RichH

My experience with DM led dives, is that the DM is leading from the front of the group, and while he or she may be generally aware of what's going on in the group, they are not always in the best position to respond.

For example, I "rescued" a brand new diver on a swim through in about 60' of water. The DMwent through first, and I was hanging around the back. The dive through was silted out and the diver was sitting on her knees at the entrance after everyone else had gone in and silted it to the point where it was at or close to 0 viz. Since I could see she was starting to panic, I approached her and sorted out the problem.

If she'd have been unresponsive, I'd have been her rescuer. If she'd shot to the surface, or ripped off her mask, or spit out her regulator, the rescue problem would have been mine, not because I was the "primary rescue person" or even perhaps the best qualified person but because I was right there.

I'm all for check-out/shakedown dives. From my perspective, it lets me eye everyone else. I want to know the good, the bad and the ugly about folks I'll be diving with, and how you dive is much more probative than what's in your wallet.

Almost all of my local dives are "training" dives. It doesn't make sense to me not to practice what I've learned and try to improve.

 

[EarlJonesIII]

Out of curiosity...

Of the divers in this thread who are opposed to check out dives:

1. How many practice air-share ascents did you practice in the last 6 months / 50 fun dives?

2. How many practice mask remove/replaces did you practice in the last 6 months / 50 fun dives?

3. How many dives did you practice LPI oral inflation buoyancy control on in the last 6 months / 50 fun dives?

4. How many practice dives did you have sole responsibility for navigating in the last 6 months / 50 fun dives?

5. How many practice recoveries of unresponsive divers did you practice in the last 6 months / 50 fun dives?

Just asking...

1. None

2. None. I'm basically a waterbug so I don't practice it. I can take it off and put it on and clear it all day long.

3. None. It ain't rocket surgery. You pres the button and blow into the thing.

4. None. I know all the wrecks in the area and the entire bottom of the Radio Island rock jetty, Shackleford Rock Jetty, and Cape Lookout Rock Jetty, and Turn Basin by heart. I can navigate them at night without a compass. For me this would be like practicing how to navigate around my living room.

5 None.


Except for #5, all these are SCUBA 101 basics. I don't see the point in practicing sharing air ascent. Maybe for a just recently certified Open Water newbie I guess. You take your buddies alternate reg and breathe it like normal. What's to practice?