AOW right after OWD

[dfx]

The real question is not the semantics of the name but rather should it really be two separate classes. Can you really be a competent diver with just OW?

Yes, of course you can. Or rather, you should be. Not straight out of class of course, but after a bit of experience. Think back to when you were taking driving lessons. You finished driving school, got your license... You were allowed to drive on your own, but did you think you actually were a competent driver then?

Regarding the original question, I see no problem going from one directly to the other, assuming you actually did learn the skills taught during OW, since I see one as a continuation of the other.

That's the point. You learned them, but you won't be proficient or competent in them coming straight out of class. It takes time, practise and experience.

From what I have read on SB, OW and AOW use to be one course, along with Rescue. Please correct me if this is wrong. So calling them OW 1 and 2 is not far off target. And I doubt that many experienced SBers believe that the navigation, wreck, night, etc as they are covered in AOW are truly " advanced" but rather additional "basic" skills that are not included in most Padi OW classes. I think of advanced as going beyond the basics skills that, let's face it, all divers should have some concept of. I see advanced as improving on a set of skills; advanced navigation, advanced wreck, advanced gas management, advanced...well, you get the picture.

That's not the impression I get from a lot of the posts in this thread. People seem to think that coming straight of out OWD, they're not actually confident enough to do basic open water dives on their own, even though they should be. So they take AOW. Which may make them confident enough to do basic open water dives, but then they won't be confident enough to do advanced open water dives. So what's the point?

 

[TMHeimer]

instructor ratio.

Of course I have questions and I would have liked to repeat the tasks multiple times so the instructor can show me what I'm doing right and what I'm doing wrong. Maybe show me some tips and tricks. We spent 2 days in a pool and did 4 dives and I'm expected to jump into an ocean by myself?



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Yes. Well, with a buddy no deeper than 60' in conditions as good or better than your training, etc. There is a lot to be covered in 2 weekend pool days. A better way for me was the 6 week nights--but, same total hours to do the stuff, just not all of it at once. Time constraints, pool rental fees, pool availability hours, and other things dictate the amount of time given to each skill. Students needing more time can get extra help--individual classes (for twice the fee usually) may be available. Instructors spending time with those who don't get it right away (or DMs doing so if available) is commonplace, as it is in a school classroom. Just the way it is. I know some individuals have more comprehensive OW courses and that's great. After OW, it is wise to buddy with a good, experienced diver for a few dives (IMO, as opposed to buddying with another newbie), then think AOW or better yet Rescue, as I mentioned. As long as you're comfortable with diving in general, AOW can only be of help.

 

[DevonDiver]

AOW is not "4 or 5 more dives with an instructor". It is a collection of new skills.

What skills?

The dives are experiential. That's why PADI call them 'Adventure Dives', not training dives. There aren't any significant new skills introduced. Where there are new skills (i.e. "using a torch" or "counting kick strokes") they could hardly be defined as task over-load for any reasonably competent novice diver.

Examples:

Deep Adventure Dive Performance Requirements
1. Descend using a line, wall or sloping bottom. Existing skill - taught on Open Water
2. Compare changes in color at the surface and at depth. Not a 'skill'
3. Compare a depth gauge to another diver’s depth gauge. Not a 'skill'
4. Ascend at a rate not to exceed 18 metres/60 feet per minute using a dive computer (or depth gauge and timing device). Existing skill - taught on Open Water
5. Make a safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet for at least three minutes. Existing skill - taught on Open Water


Night Adventure Dive Performance Requirements
1. Descend using a reference line or sloping bottom. Existing skill - taught on Open Water
2. Communicate on the dive using both hand signals and dive lights. Existing skill (hand signals) taught on Open Water - torch signals are new. Required ability - use a torch
3. Demonstrate how to use a dive light, submersible pressure gauge, compass, timing device and depth gauge at night. Existing skill - taught on Open Water - torch use is new
4. Navigate to a predetermined location using a compass/ natural features and return to within 8 metres/25 feet of the starting point. When necessary, surface for orientation.
5. Maintain buddy contact throughout the dive. Existing skill - taught on Open Water
6. Ascend using a reference line or sloping bottom. Existing skill - taught on Open Water

Navigation Adventure Dive Performance Requirements
1. Maintain neutral buoyancy. Existing skill - taught on Open Water
2. Determine the average number of kick cycles and average amount of time required to swim underwater at a normal, relaxed pace approximately 30 metres/100 feet.
3. Navigate to a predetermined location and return to within 15 metres/50 feet of the starting point using natural references and estimated distance measurement (kick cycles or time). Surface only if necessary to verify direction or location. Often taught on Open Water. Required ability - counting
4. Position and handle a compass underwater to maintain an accurate heading while swimming. Existing skill - taught on Open Water
5. Navigate without surfacing to a predetermined location and return to within 6 metres/20 feet of the starting point using a compass and estimated distance measurement (kick cycles or time). Existing skill - taught on Open Water
6. Swim a square pattern underwater, returning to within 8 metres/25 feet of the starting point using a compass and beginning from a fixed location. Recommended size of square – each side 30 metres/100 feet, or total combined length of approximately 120 metres/400 feet. Existing skill - taught on Open Water, just extra turns added.

If you are still preocupied with the basics then...

You were either short-changed on your OW course or have allowed your core skills to diminish since qualification (lack of use/bad habit forming etc).

Either way, the following Instructor Standard should take care of that issue:

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Assessing Open Water Dive Readiness For Continuing Education Courses and Open Water Diver Referrals
In preparation for the dive and before beginning open water dive skills, assess the diver’s skills and comfort level inwater and generally assess dive knowledge. If the diver exhibits lack of dive readiness, remediate before training progresses.
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By that standard, no student should be taken into progressive training, unless their prerequisite skills and knowledge are acceptable as per the stated performance standards of the prerequisite training courses (i.e. OW for AOW). This should, in theory, ensure that divers were ready for continued training and prevent "mutual waste and folly".

If students are admitted onto training dives without those stated prerequisite capabilities, then it is a failure of the instructor concerned to correctly apply training standards.

I've turned several training courses into remedial sessions for sub-standard students. I start AOW with the PPB dive... this serves as my assessment. If they struggle to achieve OW standards/expectations on PPB, then it becomes a remedial, not a progressive training dive. On occasions, it becomes a 'Scuba Review' type dive. Obviously, remedial dives aren't counted ('signed off') as adventure dives contributing towards AOW. Only when the student reaches the prerequisite standard (i.e. OW performance standards) will Adventure Dives be conducted.

The student's baseline competency shapes the structure of their AOW training. I tailor each course with the goal to promote development, regardless of the student's starting ability. Given 5 dives with a student, I can make substantial improvement to their overall diving skill and knowledge. I tend to view AOW as a cumulative process of development. Each successful dive brings new capabilities - those capabilities are then rehearsed and refined over each successive dive. If dive #1 is PPB, then I drive the student to apply that improved buoyancy/trim/propulsion on each subsequent dive. If dive #2 is navigation, then the student wears a compass and navigates every dive afterwards. Dive #3 is the Deep Dive - so students precision plan and conduct remaining dives showing increased awareness of depth/time/NDL, along with proper ascent rate and safety stop (without prompting or guidance). Dive #4 is the Night Dive, which I use to stress team/buddy skills and communication.

End result: 5 dives to work on buoyancy, 4 dives to work on navigation, 3 dives to work on planning/profiling, 2 dives to work on team/communication skills etc etc...

Sadly, I am assuming that my approach is a minority. Many instructors don't conduct an effective pre-course assessment or are content to sign off Adventure Dives when they are actually remedial OW dives. The worst simply tick boxes and take students on glorified fun dives. Hence, the general disillusionment with AOW by divers, who are taken through AOW as a 'tick the box' exercise that neither remediates weak OW skills nor permits progressive development of skill.

Rather than viewing AOW as a serious opportunity to progress ability, it is commonly viewed as a 'necessary expense' that you have to attend to get your 'license' for 30m/100ft.

For the record, I currently only offer OW and AOW as a combination. It takes 5-7 days (depending on time needed for theory) and consists of 10 dives total. That dive/day count represents a minimum - students do more if they need to. Performance, not attendance, matters. I get very good results. As a personal matter of ethics, I just don't believe that 4 dives on an OW course is sufficient to sign-off the vast majority of people as competent, safe divers.

 

[mbitton]

Please, by all means contact PADI and recommend they change the name. Write a point paper on the reasons it is "deceiving".

Technically the use of the term Advanced is correct. The diver has advanced their learning. They have been instructed in more challenging scenarios but when applied to diving, I think it implies a greater amount of knowledge that MIGHT have not been attained yet.

I could go and get my AOW cert. with <10 dives. I have yet to learn what you've already forgotten! I won't feel like an Advanced diver…I don't see how the name fits the cert.

 

[uncfnp]

Yes. You can. My wife, our very dear friend and myself are going to Oahu tomorrow. One of us is OW. One is AOW. One is Rescue. I seriously doubt you could tell which is which by watching us dive. Any of us plan a dive. Any of us can lead the other two.

Then you are all limited to 60 foot dives if you stick strictly to the OW guidelines. Don't get me wrong, I am a strong believer in self taught skills but would your wife be doing the dives you do if you or someone else had not "taught" her to dive beyond the OW limits?

 

[Tigerman]

Then you are all limited to 60 foot dives if you stick strictly to the OW guidelines. Don't get me wrong, I am a strong believer in self taught skills but would your wife be doing the dives you do if you or someone else had not "taught" her to dive beyond the OW limits?

Even more so, you could get into trouble with your insurance company if **** hits the fan or dive ops not allowing you access to certain sites..

 

[uncfnp]

Yes, of course you can. Or rather, you should be. Not straight out of class of course, but after a bit of experience. Think back to when you were taking driving lessons. You finished driving school, got your license... You were allowed to drive on your own, but did you think you actually were a competent driver then?

A competent diver that can not go beyond 60 feet, has never dove night or wreck, most likely has never deployed a surface safety sausage. He may indeed be competent but his dive universe will be very small, unless he goes beyond his teaching...

That's the point. You learned them, but you won't be proficient or competent in them coming straight out of class. It takes time, practise and experience.

It is hard to get the time, practice and expertise when you are limited by the skills taught in the OW class

That's not the impression I get from a lot of the posts in this thread. People seem to think that coming straight of out OWD, they're not actually confident enough to do basic open water dives on their own, even though they should be. So they take AOW. Which may make them confident enough to do basic open water dives, but then they won't be confident enough to do advanced open water dives. So what's the point?

Thats my point, unless its a very tightly controlled environment, those first few dives after OW are going to require the OW diver to dive beyond his set of skills. Most divers do indeed have a few dives between and see just how little of the diving world they have been exposed to. Do I feel these dives are a necessary transition? No, but if the diver survives them, he may have a greater appreciation of the skills available in AOW. For most divers, completion of AOW does makes them competent open water divers, not advanced divers as I view the term. Wreck penetration is advanced, caves is advanced, ice is advanced...

 

[supergaijin]

Open Water generally equates to 'Beginner Diver'.
Advanced OW = Advanced Beginner Diver.

When I did a crossover instructor course at a resort for SSI, I was initially impressed when I learned that their AOW course required 24? dives and a bunch of colourful stickers in the logbook. Unfortunately SSI has since bowed to market pressure and has copied PADI with 'Advanced Adventurer'. Same minimal 'training' and a ticket to go deeper than many, many divers ever should.

Depending on the diver (and the Instructor), AOW can be a good thing coupled with the OW course. However it seems like the majority of courses (and students) are not up to par. Unfortunately there is absolutely no assessment of a diver's ability before doing the course. However I have seen divers ready to continue training straight after their OW as they've demonstrated the physical and mental attributes necessary- as well as the discipline to keep them safe.

As DevonDiver has pointed out, assessments are actually a requirement for instructors to follow. This also could be taken to say that AOW courses cannot/should not start before at least one 'normal' dive where the potential student's skills are assessed.

Assessing Open Water Dive Readiness For Continuing Education Courses and Open Water Diver Referrals
In preparation for the dive and before beginning open water dive skills, assess the diver&#8217;s skills and comfort level inwater and generally assess dive knowledge. If the diver exhibits lack of dive readiness, remediate before training progresses.

Sadly this is rarely the case- impossible really unless the certifying OW instructor makes the assessment during the last OW dive, and then continues for AOW.

In SEA the main reason why people continue straight in to AOW is $$$. Some backpackers in Koh Tao for example offer free accomodation while under training. AOW-Rescue-DM can seem like a good option to 'save' money while 'doing Thailand'. Elsewhere AOW courses are often advertised for only a few dollars more than the cost of fun dives- again price is the key for many people. IME working in these areas, there is very little in the way of quality training... however there is always the 1%.

 

[DevonDiver]

Sadly this is rarely the case- impossible really unless the certifying OW instructor makes the assessment during the last OW dive, and then continues for AOW.

In preparation for the dive and before beginning open water dive skills, assess the diver&#8217;s skills and comfort level inwater and generally assess dive knowledge. If the diver exhibits lack of dive readiness, remediate before training progresses.

I read the above to mean that an assessment can be done on AOW Dive #1... 'before beginning open water dive skills' for that adventure dive. Before the skills, not before the dive.

That's why I normally start AOW with PPB. For OW divers who didn't qualify with me, or who'd benefit from further refinement (who doesn't?) then it's mandatory on my courses. It's shallow and normally of sufficient length to permit some assessment before progressing with skills and drills. You'd need (optimally?) to do some form of assessment at the start of PPB anyway, so that you (the instructor) can identify student strengths and weaknesses to permit focused training development.

My PPB starts with hovering. Horizontal hover with proper trim is a key indicator of their capability. If that's okay, then I task load their hover by running through some OW skills (hover should not fall apart, when task loaded). So... some air-share, mask remove etc etc. Then some 'passing weights' in hover.

If they flunk the assessment, then it just becomes a remedial session/dive.

Mask remove/replace; whilst retaining a properly trimmed horizontal hover, without excessive depth change is, perhaps, the most illustrative test of an OW diver's core capability. Any fundamental issues with buoyancy, trim, breath control or water comfort are quickly diagnosed. It can take a few repetitions, but any diver with quality, ingrained, OW skills can achieve this. Those trained from scratch with an emphasis on neutral buoyancy (no drills on their knees) should excel at it. Those that were trained 'traditionally' on their knees will struggle on the first few attempts, but should achieve it soon enough. Those without good skills, who have been 'ticked off' from an OW course by an instructor with low standards may not achieve this within a single dive...

Then onto propulsion techniques - frog kick and helicopter turns. That, again, puts demands on their buoyancy skill and trim. I normally spend some time on propulsion techniques without the fins on... it teaches them to 'feel' the loading (and stops them cheating bad buoyancy by using fins for upwards propulsion). Then horizontal ascent and descent using breath control. Lastly, DSMB deployment from horizontal hover - a very good demonstration/test of stability and control with task loading, whilst dealing with changing buoyancy states.

At no point do I have divers swim through fricken' hoops...

 

[Dirty-Dog]

Then you are all limited to 60 foot dives if you stick strictly to the OW guidelines. Don't get me wrong, I am a strong believer in self taught skills but would your wife be doing the dives you do if you or someone else had not "taught" her to dive beyond the OW limits?

That's why they're guidelines, not rules.