It is your responsibilty to check. When ever you put something on the line that contradicts other line arrows then you run the risk of confusing other teams,and the possibility of causing another team's demise. Look at the accident at Madison. A team exiting has a silt out around the half hitch. The one thing that confused them is they encountered a line arrow pointing them back into the cave,until they found another line arrow pointing toward the exit. The downloaded Nitek 3 confirmed they made the trip back and forth a couple times before they figured out what was wrong,unfortunately they consumed gas needed for the exit and perished.Meng_Tze:
Arrow/cookie protocol survey
- Thread starter loosebits
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loosebits:
What is a personal line arrow versus a permenant line arrow?
Some people will say a personal line arrow has my name on it-can't read that very well in a silt out. Or the line arrow has a notch,drilled hole,rounded edges etc etc-will a team exiting in an emergency and under stress,stop and feel this line arrow to determine if it is personal or not? Probably not,but if they do then they have to stop and consume valuable time (air) to figure this out.
Basically if all line arrows follow the rule they point toward the closest exit regardless if they are permenant or personal,then we don't have accidents. When line arrows are contradictory then we have a history of accidents or nears misses.
That's true.. if everyone followed the same rules then there would be no confusion and if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle (can you say balls on scubaboard?).
Different cave instructors are obviously teaching different methods and arguing those methods isn't going to solve the problem. What I do want to do is understand what others are doing. It sounds like H2Andy and I were both taught the same method. I was taught by Mike O'Leary. What protocols are you using? GUE style (which I never knew until I posted this thread)?
Now that you are aware that people are using arrows for jumps and those arrows may contradict the navigation in the cave, you should be weary of a lone arrow with a line tied into it. Even if I change my method and never do it again, others are taking full cave from the person who taught me.
Different cave instructors are obviously teaching different methods and arguing those methods isn't going to solve the problem. What I do want to do is understand what others are doing. It sounds like H2Andy and I were both taught the same method. I was taught by Mike O'Leary. What protocols are you using? GUE style (which I never knew until I posted this thread)?
Now that you are aware that people are using arrows for jumps and those arrows may contradict the navigation in the cave, you should be weary of a lone arrow with a line tied into it. Even if I change my method and never do it again, others are taking full cave from the person who taught me.
karstdvr:
Both NACD and GUE manuals (and I was taught this too) that you go back (if this is your dive, simple in and out) the way you came. Even though you may be past half way between two entrances/exits, you turn back the way you came since this is a known exit.
You are right, what is a personal arrow and what is not. Personal arrows are personalized and do not mean a thing to me, nor should they. The fact that an arrow point the 'other way' can be for several reasons; wrong installation, past half way between two exits, other team's arrow. I still know where I came from and that that exit is open. By following the arrows to the 'new' nearest exit, I may end up at that exit to find a tree fell into it, it is bogged up or the line is not leading me all the way to the surface (or into the cavern zone). I have now wasted gas going to 'the nearest exit' according to the arrows that are not my direction of exit.
Now in a silt out situational awareness comes in play as well. Just before the silt out, I had the line on my left when entering, thus it must be on my right when exiting. If I hold the line in my right hand on my right side and swim forward, I am going back to where I came from. I know I am going against the 'arrow direction' because I passed the mid point and my team and I made note of that. If I have a jump in there somewhere I put a coocki at MY EXIT direction of the arrow, regardless of where it points to. All my coockies are at the exit side. Period.
Now if I am in a system I know, I may choose to traverse in an emergency (like your example P1 / Olson. In a system I am not familiar with, I am going back the way I came because I know I can get to air there.
karstdvr:
I am glad you are here advocating this position Kelly. I don't feel authoritative enough on this issue since I'm only GUE-Cave1.
I can 100% understand (even at my level) that the general navigation of the cave should not change just because someone made a jump. Unfortunately, the divers making these jumps selfishly believe that they NEED an arrow there. But really a cookie can accomplish the exact same purpose and NOT muck with another team's silt out, OOA, etc exit.
Please continue to teach and preach use of cookies for personal direction marking. The use of personal arrows is unnecessary and especially dangerous in increasingly busy/crowded systems. Thank you.
I´m full-cave but a newbie. I was taught to never place an arrow in a mapped system. The reason given was the silt-out scenario above. It was explained that personal "comfort" doesen´t trump the potential killing of other teams experiencing a silt-out. It was made clear that we shouldn´t expect other divers to show the same consideration.
NDM´s (our instructor hated the word cookie) should be used for any personal/team navigation. One NDM, minimum per instance, more if individuals or the team want to. I don´t see the need for more than one cookie for a team but that´s just MO...
ymmv
NDM´s (our instructor hated the word cookie) should be used for any personal/team navigation. One NDM, minimum per instance, more if individuals or the team want to. I don´t see the need for more than one cookie for a team but that´s just MO...
ymmv
rjack321:
Thanks a lot. I have seen first hand a couple near miss accidents due to navigation marker contradicition,one incident from a very well known cave diver that everybody on this forum would recognize. The cookie has proven to be a great cave diving innovation,far better than the clothes pins that I was brought up on using.
loosebits:
Same
Same
Choice 1 - Tie in between arrows; 2 - onto 2nd arrow; 3 - onto 1st arrow; 4 - behind 2nd arrow
Same
Didn't discuss this one exactly
No arrow, clip reel to itself, head one direction, if initial direction wrong, just swim the other way.
One thing that I was taught was the use of cookies as direction markers. I have my cookies drilled and always place the hole towards my exit. That way it is still a directional marker for me, both visually and by feel. On the example of making a marked jump when coming from the opposite direction, this is what I would do so other divers don't become confused by an arrow pointing opposite the permanent arrows. I'll never place an arrow facing the opposite direction of a permanent arrow. I'll just place a cookie set up as a directional for me.
grazie42:
The practice of not marking your exit has led to full cave divers doing "trust me" dives. E.g. following a guide who places a jump and some divers don't mark their exit. And fail to note directions well because of it. This has created some near misses and several fatalities. The most glaring that I can recall is in MX on the Calimba.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/divingaccidents/message/3088
http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10594&highlight=snap+gap
And the same problem without the deaths (same guide actually :11: )
http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21499&highlight=snap+gap
I'm sure it has happened elsewhere.
Marking your own Ts, jumps, and arrow direction changes has 2 benefits.
1) it reinforces/makes sure that everyone has noted the navigational element - no arguments
2) if a team is seperated and the cookies leave a personalized trail for the lost diver/rescuers to follow.
The only time I was taught to place an arrow is for a lost diver. Then an arrow goes on the line when you realize someone's missing behind. Recalculate gas and search back along line. Assuming you find a silt trail or evidence they are off the mainline you place an arrow and tie the safety spool to it at the jumping off point.
May leave an arrow or 2 along the safety spool line you unsucessfully used to search for them (assuming you don't find them). Also leave a backup light pointing into the cave at the junction of the mainline and safety spool.
This would be the only situation I would use personal arrows. For all "normal" dives directions are labeled with cookies, one per teammember. Even though I am limited to one T (no jumps), I carry 3 cookies.
YMMV, play safe.
I think this is one of those things that can be argued back and forth. I´d say that the problem with those dives is that they were "trust me dives", not that divers didn´t drop NDMs. If you do a dive (any dive) with your mind "switched off" you are inviting trouble, NDMs or no...rjack321:
You feel that everyone should drop cookies and I don´t (though I´m open to the idea of changing my mind after I´ve gained some more experience) , I´d shalk it up to personal preference
11: ) and leave it at that...
