Atomic Z2 for deco/stage bottles

[kensuf]

A couple of things here..

You claim you may not have been trying to raise a question of "ethics" but you definitely seem to be painting a picture that the gear decisions made by some of the people at the cutting edge of dive exploration were based on manufacturer deals and this is patently false.

I didn't get a discount from Suex on my scooter. I talked to Casey and he told me to go talk to a dealer. In full disclosure, I did work out a deal with the dive shop I teach through, but even with my deal, my XK1 was more expensive than scooters I could have bought from the competition.

I paid the premium for my XK1 because of the ability to remove the prop underwater (sorry Submerge) and the the windup speed of other scooters (sorry Bonex).

I didn't get a sponsorship on my Atomics regs either. A year ago I sold my Apeks regs and moved to the Atomics mostly because I prefer the Atomics first stage (balanced piston) over the diaphragm and the seat saver feature of the second stage really works.

As for the "KUR is doing dives just as if not more extreme and they do it on Apeks regs and SS dpvs" comment, the last time I checked, I was a KUR member. So is Charlie Roberson. So is Bob Schulte. So is Jon Bernot. We dive Suex scooters and Charlie, myself, and Jon use Atomics regs. There are a couple of other members of KUR that own (and use) Suex scooters too.

But, you know, there are several that DO dive Submerge scooters and we even have two guys that use Bonex scooters. Heck, Ted McCoy had a Gavin until not too long ago.

If you'd like to see a listing of what companies sponsor KUR, you can see it here. Karst Underwater Research - Sponsors. You won't see Suex or Submerge on the list, but several of us own them.

 

[tbone1004]

@kensuf my apologies, I should have specified the KUR members I was talking about which in that context was Andy and Brett. Poor distinction on my part, so I apologize

That said, how is taking advantage of a relationship you have with a manufacturer an ethical problem? There is nothing wrong with doing it, that is literally the point behind sponsorships, which you just linked.

Can you say that every single piece of equipment that you as a collective whole is based on it being the absolute best product available and if you chose one that was more cost effective, you didn't weigh in a gear manufacturers discount or sponsorship into the equation? Your comment and sponsorship very rarely align and while it may on certain pieces of gear, there is no way that it does on every single piece of gear.

 

[Kristi@CCDS]

@kensuf my apologies, I should have specified the KUR members I was talking about which in that context was Andy and Brett. Poor distinction on my part, so I apologize

That said, how is taking advantage of a relationship you have with a manufacturer an ethical problem? There is nothing wrong with doing it, that is literally the point behind sponsorships, which you just linked.

Can you say that every single piece of equipment that you as a collective whole is based on it being the absolute best product available and if you chose one that was more cost effective, you didn't weigh in a gear manufacturers discount or sponsorship into the equation? Your comment and sponsorship very rarely align and while it may on certain pieces of gear, there is no way that it does on every single piece of gear.

In the case of Jon and I, yes, every piece of gear we are currently diving was chosen because it was what we considered the best gear for the projects we are involved in. In fact, we became SUEX dealers AFTER having decided that these scooters were the right ones for the job. We bought the Atomic regs BEFORE we started really stocking and selling them. As for the other KUR members, I can't answer for them. Does cost figure in some place for Jon and I, a little maybe....but the cost on the SUEX and Atomic line were more than other similar items we had dove in the past I can promise you that and as a user posted above, since Jon normally has $30K plus of scooters in the water with him on many of these dives, cost is a minor factor compaired to, will it work when **** hits the fan. If he quibbled over cost I personally would NOT let him get in the water. I want him to come home to me and his little girl at the end of the day. If that means paying a little bit more for a better product, you better believe he will be paying a little bit more. Exploration is not a kids game, it is expensive.

Yes a dealer gets cost or as you are putting it 'deals' on equipment, that is one of the benefits of putting your living on the line by owning a dive shop.

 

[kensuf]

Yeah, I can say that cost isn't a major deciding factor for me.

I bought an SF2 because it has amazing flood tolerance -- I flooded my KISS Classic when I was 2 miles from the nearest exit and was unhappy with the result. I took an SF2 on a try dive, flooded it 5 minutes into the dive on purpose and then continued on for 2 more hours without skipping a beat. That was enough to convince me this is the CCR I want.

I bought an XK1 because I watched a guy mulch line with a prop (truly user error on his part), but he was able to remove the prop and fix it and continue the dive.

I bought the new LM light after doing a demo dive on one.

The list goes on and on. And, if I decided there was another product that was better than the ones I am using now, I could probably work a deal with them so the cost argument is moot.

Heck, I paid MORE for my Atomics regs than I could buy a brand new set of regs from Dive Gear Express. I paid MORE for my XK1 than I could have paid for a scooter with similar burn time from the other two vendors. I paid MORE for my SF2 than other rebreathers.

 

[Scared Silly]

Back OT for the OP. I dive AA regs all the way around for both rec and tek. For your back gas the M1s are over kill as you will not be diving anything over 40% O2. Use them for your deco bottles as they will be ones over 40% O2. Use your B2s for your back gas. At that point you have four regs that are from the same mfg which makes servicing easier.

If you want the wider exhaust and other M1 features like the cave ring. Just swap the color bits around - that is the beauty of AA regs everything is inter changeable.

 

[jebernot]

I have personally found that the piston design with the sealed and packed lube seem to be very reliable. I like the compact size for stages. Personally I use the M1s for primary bailout and doubles and the Z2 for everything else. I have one of the ST1 which is very nice too if you want to go high end. For what it is worth they are one of the few manufacturers who actually do manufacture their own product, I hope it stays that way, and the cost of the Z2 is the same or less than many of the OEM units coming in from Taiwan. Some of those are good regulators but cost being similar I have found these to be more reliable. Maybe it's good luck and bad luck but I have had good luck with pistons and have had less luck with diaphragm designs. If you want the advantage of the M1 face cover without the cost of the entire unit get the Z2 and get the M1 cover for them. Both of those also have standard hoses without the swivel which is my personal preference.

 

[divezonescuba]

Could someone enlighten me on the relationship between WMD and Ocean Divers Supply?

Is one a supplier for the other or are they both independent manufacturers?

Which one make regs for Deep 6?

The new Zeagles 1st stages look a lot like some of the regs on both those companys' websites?

 

[tbone1004]

WMD and ODS are separate companies that OEM for a lot of different mfg's.

ODS makes the Deep6 regs

I believe Atomic makes Zeagles regs for them

 

[divezonescuba]

Thanks.

 

[BoltSnap]

For your back gas the M1s are over kill as you will not be diving anything over 40% O2. Use them for your deco bottles as they will be ones over 40% O2. Use your B2s for your back gas.

If one already has the B2's, this maybe correct but if buying all new, there is no reason to buy the B2 for this purpose, I'd buy the M1 for all regulator use (BM, stages, deco, SM). There is no reason for me to pay for the overpriced and annoying LP second stage swivel that is permanently attached to the hose. This is the only flaw I can think of with the Atomic regulator line, permanently attached second stage swivel!