Bad photographers at SCUBA Club

[vincent54]

I will respond to Mossman. Most people grow up. Our actions of youth don't always reflect our adult actions. If you think the turtle farm is good that's your opinion,read the most recent report on the overcrowding etc. if you want justification for harassing something you won't get it. Ask a DOE, DNR or federal game officer if it's legal. Someone like yourself obviously knows all the answers.

 

[fishi]

I will respond to Mossman. Most people grow up. Our actions of youth don't always reflect our adult actions. If you think the turtle farm is good that's your opinion,read the most recent report on the overcrowding etc. if you want justification for harassing something you won't get it. Ask a DOE, DNR or federal game officer if it's legal. Someone like yourself obviously knows all the answers.

I like it when people take on Mossman. It's usually very entertaining. Good luck...

 

[cicopo]

Based on the attitude of some members here I'd say they think they are exempt from rules / laws / treaties they personally don't agree with. Hopefully I won't find myself diving with them when they ignore those "suggested" guidelines.

 

[Mossman]

I will respond to Mossman. Most people grow up. Our actions of youth don't always reflect our adult actions. If you think the turtle farm is good that's your opinion,read the most recent report on the overcrowding etc. if you want justification for harassing something you won't get it. Ask a DOE, DNR or federal game officer if it's legal. Someone like yourself obviously knows all the answers.

The turtle farm supplies the need of Caymanians for turtle soup. Eating turtle soup is their national heritage. Would you take that away from them? By closing the turtle farm, you'd only force Caymanians to catch and eat wild turtles, thus depleting an already endangered species. Reports of e. coli in the water? Oh no! What do you think the e. coli count is on your average American cattle ranch? Salmonella in egg/chicken farms? Heck, we even have to wash our cantaloupes in hot water because of the e. coli and you take your life in your hands nowadays by eating bagged lettuce without boiling it first.

I never tried to justify harassment of any kind. I can't stand being harassed myself, especially by timeshare salesmen, aggressive vendors, and divemasters. All I did was point out that stroking the shell of a wounded turtle asleep inside a wreck could not possibly be considered harassment if the turtle didn't wake up or even move, especially not when compared with the harassing and illegal behavior exhibited by recreational divers on a daily basis: chasing turtles with video cameras, surrounding a turtle engaged in feeding on the reef and shooting off strobes in its face. Yet if you ask the DOE, DNR, or federal game officer which one is legal and which is illegal, he or she will cluelessly claim that touching is worth a $10,000 fine, while the divers' behavior that is clearly designated as illegal in the ESA would get a wink and a nod from them.

Did you ever wonder why cartoons always make fun of the clueless park ranger?

I don't claim to know all the answers. I asked if you have any sort of legal citation to back up your claim that mere touching of a sea turtle is forbidden under the Endangered Species Act. Citing suggestions doesn't give me the answer. Citing DOE, DNR, or federal game officers' opinions doesn't give me the answer. Find me a statute or regulation that specifically mentions touching or defines harassment as including touching, or find me a case, any case, where someone was held liable for merely touching a sea turtle, and you'll win. It's as easy as that.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2014 at 01:23 PM ----------

Based on the attitude of some members here I'd say they think they are exempt from rules / laws / treaties they personally don't agree with. Hopefully I won't find myself diving with them when they ignore those "suggested" guidelines.

Civil disobedience. Man against the machine. I am willing to go to jail to defend my human rights.

Suggested guidelines I at times willfully ignore when diving: stay shallower than 60/100/130 feet, come back with 500 psi in your tank, always do an optional safety stop, don't take your regulator out of your mouth until your back on the boat, always dive with a buddy, only dive solo with a redundant air source, never dive solo, carry a snorkel even at 80 feet, don't wear gloves, don't carry a knife, carry a knife, wear gloves, don't pee in your wetsuit, and never, ever touch anything whatsoever underwater.

I also exceed the speed limit here in the U.S. and in foreign countries, occasionally run a red left-turn arrow when it's particularly obnoxious, don't wear "eco" sunscreen in the Marine Park, don't always lick salt before downing a tequila shot, and I've even violated FAA regulations by bringing my own alcohol on a commercial aircraft and blatantly drinking it without it being served to me by a flight attendant (in the form of a Starbucks iced coffee that I liberally laced with booze from a President's Club).

On the other hand, I haven't killed anyone yet.

 

[miked]

And we're off...yet again......

 

[cvchief]

Based on the attitude of some members here I'd say they think they are exempt from rules / laws / treaties they personally don't agree with. Hopefully I won't find myself diving with them when they ignore those "suggested" guidelines.

I think I read the question at the heart of this as one of definitions. The fact that someone thinks a touch to a turtle is harassment really doesn't make it so, if the law does not agree. I am not suggesting anyone should be hugging turtles, but I also have to agree that putting forward your opinion on what the law means is less than definitive in determining what the law actually means. Even more to the point, even if the wording of the law seems crystal clear, you could still find a court that has defined it differently and changed that clear meaning.

And Moss, stop picking on the Park Ranger or whoever. Just because someone says they are going to call the po-po doesn't mean the po-po will take it seriously. If I have a dollar for every time I heard, 'but smashing a mailbox is a federal offense....' No one has mentioned an actual case of over-zealous enforcement, just zealous reporting.

 

[cicopo]

Well one point that seems to have fallen from this discussion is that Cozumel isn't a US possession & has it's own laws. I know how & why we got into US laws & interpretations but we're supposed to be respecting Mexico's laws re the Endangered Turtles. Not that I've had any personal experience but from what I've read & seen on TV Mexico assumes you're guilty until you prove otherwise.

 

[cvchief]

Civil disobedience. Man against the machine. I am willing to go to jail to defend my human rights.

They would let you out. At some point, they would give up.

Suggested guidelines I at times willfully ignore when diving:

I never do that.

stay shallower than 60/100/130 feet,

Oh wait, I have done that.

come back with 500 psi in your tank,

Oh, that too.

always do an optional safety stop,

I always go for the 3 minutes.

don't take your regulator out of your mouth until your back on the boat,

Do that all the time. Pics, check out the air2, spit.

always dive with a buddy,

DD says I ain't close enough.

only dive solo with a redundant air source, never dive solo,

I do want a pony tank. Its the cool thing now.

carry a snorkel even at 80 feet,

Yea, no snorkel.

don't wear gloves,

Gloves, smoves.

don't carry a knife, carry a knife, wear gloves,

oh... ah... no comment.

don't pee in your wetsuit,

I did when I wore one. It was a rental....

and never, ever touch anything whatsoever underwater.

Hydroids. Enough said.

I also exceed the speed limit here in the U.S. and in foreign countries, occasionally run a red left-turn arrow when it's particularly obnoxious,

I only do as the taxis do. They are trained professionals and must know the law.

don't wear "eco" sunscreen in the Marine Park,

Now you are going to h-e-double toothpicks. I saw a parrot fish with a bleached spot.

don't always lick salt before downing a tequila shot,

Now that is just being difficult.

and I've even violated FAA regulations by bringing my own alcohol on a commercial aircraft and blatantly drinking it without it being served to me by a flight attendant (in the form of a Starbucks iced coffee that I liberally laced with booze from a President's Club)..

They don't let me in the President's Club....

 

[Mossman]

Well one point that seems to have fallen from this discussion is that Cozumel isn't a US possession & has it's own laws. I know how & why we got into US laws & interpretations but we're supposed to be respecting Mexico's laws re the Endangered Turtles. Not that I've had any personal experience but from what I've read & seen on TV Mexico assumes you're guilty until you prove otherwise.

Then you're just as guilty as me.

I respect Mexico's laws as much or more than the Mexicans I see in this country who stand on the side of the road looking for work under signs that ban standing on the roadside looking for work, that use fake social security cards and driver's licenses, that drive unregistered vehicles without driver's licenses or smog controls, that don't pay taxes on under-the-table income, and that are here illegally in the first place.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2014 at 02:49 PM ----------

I always go for the 3 minutes.

Even after 90 minutes at 22 feet at Columbia Shallows?

DD says I ain't close enough.

He should take it personally.

I do want a pony tank. Its the cool thing now.

Sure, for those who think DD is the epitome of coolness.

Yea, no snorkel.

It used to be the law in Laguna Beach, CA. A real honest-to-goodness law, unlike the "no touching" rule.

Now you are going to h-e-double toothpicks. I saw a parrot fish with a bleached spot.

And that wouldn't have anything to do with the untreated laundry bleach that floods the marine park from land and cruise laundry facilities, it's obviously my fault!

They don't let me in the President's Club....

I wouldn't be a member otherwise!

 

[cvchief]

Then you're just as guilty as me.

I respect Mexico's laws as much or more than the Mexicans I see in this country who stand on the side of the road looking for work under signs that ban standing on the roadside looking for work, that use fake social security cards and driver's licenses, that drive unregistered vehicles without driver's licenses or smog controls, that don't pay taxes on under-the-table income, and that are here illegally in the first place.

You really are trying to fan the flames, aren't you. Around here they all use fake SS cards. That is much nicer, as they pay SS and Medicare without being entitled to any of it. Goodness knows the system needs it. We don't have so many day laborers.

Lots of MX and people from other countries working under the table in MX too. Dive shops are known for it.

Even after 90 minutes at 22 feet at Columbia Shallows?

Yep. The nemo says stop, I stop.

He should take it personally.

(Imagine gravel-voice) You and your nephew are more like same ocean dive buddies.

Sure, for those who think DD is the epitome of coolness.

No, I swear it is catching on. Now even the cool kids are getting them.

It used to be the law in Laguna Beach, CA. A real honest-to-goodness law, unlike the "no touching" rule.

CA. Enough said.....

And that wouldn't have anything to do with the untreated laundry bleach that floods the marine park from land and cruise laundry facilities, it's obviously my fault!

It was clearly you. It looked like someone was petting him while wearing non-eco sunscreen.

I wouldn't be a member otherwise!

That's it. I am starting "Occupy President's Club." No bath and I am moving in.