Badly trained?

[Mountain Dog]

The only difference in the segmented method and a single class is that with a single class an unprepared diver is never placed in OW and not many OW divers go on to rescue.

I think 99% of the time the lack of training in OW results in two things: the under trained diver drops out because they are simply not having fun or the under trained diver learns the basics on his own before his lack of training causes injury.

Here's a possible scenario- an OW diver with just a few dives under his belt goes wall diving in Cozumel or something. While enjoying the reef at 80' (of course they take OW divers to 80'), his LP inflator starts free flowing. An experienced diver would immediately know what to do. How many newly carded OW divers could handle that? Fortunately LP inflators don't free flow that often but shouldn't a newly carded diver be able to handle it? Btw, is that kind of failure even mentioned in OW today?

Perhaps the agencies can list on the back of their cards what all emergencies will likely kill or injure you if they happen before your 25th dive.

The real question then is, what can be done to get more divers to see their training through at least to rescue? It just seems like common sense to me. I mean, stopping your training is like dropping out of school at the 8th grade. If they don't find the training to be fun, then maybe diving simply isn't for them. It's not going to trip everyone's trigger.

As for the scenario you draw, that's a diver who is going beyond their aquired skill set. I certainly don't support someone doing that. It goes back to my main point that each diver must take personal responsibility for their actions. If you haven't been trained to do an 80' dive, you have no business doing it.

I really can't speak to whether the dangers are clearly outlined in other classes, but my instructors certainly made no bones about it. In my very first classroom session the instructor opened his talk with a line to the effect of, "you are entering an activity that can take your life in a matter of seconds if you screw up." He went on in lengthy detail to outline many of the problems a diver can encounter.

In my class we covered all kinds of equipment failures, first in the pool and then in open water. Yes, we did free-flowing regulators and lp inflators, underwater entanglement, CESA, etc. For my final OW checkout dive he turned off the tank valve without me knowing it, and threw my kit in the water. As it drifted away from the boat on 3 foot waves in a modest ocean current, he told me to go put it on.

A couple of dives later I had a rental rig that started free-fllowing (the purge button stuck) at about 40 fsw. The divemaster I was with was amazed that I was able to take it out of my mouth, draw a good breath from the bubble flow, swith to my octo and calmy fuss with the reg until I got it to stop flowing...all without losing a nice horizontal trim. In at least that one instance, my early training did not fail me. But the experience did cause me to cough up the cash for my own gear. LOL.

Mountain Dog

 

[jbichsel]

So I can take a class in auto repair and if I have the right instructor and if I take the right things from it, I'll be a better diver? Of course it's the content and the course. A good instructor can overcome a poor course, but that's the exception, not the norm. Most courses are taught exactly as designed by the agency. AOW is a joke.



I know and it is ridiculous.

Walter,
I'm with you.

(Edited by jbichsel to remove any potential of "agency bashing". Sorry, went off on a bit of a rant.)


I've seen the INSTRUCTORS that can't do anything but bicycle kick and bounce along the bottom and this is what they teach.

Being able to be certified as an "Advanced Open Water Diver" with a total of 9 dives is moronic at best.

Many 'advanced' divers still scull with their hands, have poor finning technique and barely control buoyancy. Not on my watch.

In my opinion, OW needs to include ALL of the AOW and Rescue. Then there should be a minimum of 50 dives to begin an AOW course, which would provide task loading, task and skill performance and assessment while diving deep, night, UW Nav, etc. Have someone unexpectedly pull your mask off during a 100' night dive. Turn the air off at 60'.

But then this falls out of the "cash flow" model.

 

[DiverBizz]

The problem is the term AOW. If PADI called the class EOW-extended open water and spread the word that the term EOW is just a few more dives and reading chapters on those dives. Leave AOW for 50 dives including everything jbishsel stated. I do like OW including the Rescue class but that means more time and more money. Not everyone is dedicated to diving as the members of SB. I agree with PADI offering classes immediately after the OW because some new divers would not get in the water without a few more "security blanket" classes.

 

[BeachJunkie]

I think the thing to remember is that this is a civilian class. You can't expect to do military style training and have the masses enjoy it. Granted I couldn't agree more with the suggestions that people made, its still not something that your typical vacation diver is going to want. I do agree that these classes need to be much more strict. Only problem is, they're driven by the almighty dollar and the desire to get things done as fast as possible. There's nothing wrong with escorting the divers around for thier first few dives to make sure they're comfortable in the water, but to call yourself an "advanced open water" diver... I would at least think that you would have the required skills to handle yourself under the water.

 

[Lehmann108]

Its not so much that AOW is crap as in the time frame. Doing 4 O/W dives
followed by 5 AOW all supervised and you can call yourself advanced........
AOW is to me the most important non pro rating as (here in NZ) it dictates
where you can dive etc most of our charter boat skippers require it to let
you dive in our better spots. A required min number of dives to be logged
would IMHO be better as in a DM course or the old CMAS based courses.
Anyway back to my original thread even the O/W diver should have been a bit more competetent. The DSDs were. One common denominator they had was they'd all been warm water trained.

I'm just about to complete my AOW through PADI and I certainly don't think I'm "advanced" by any stretch of the imagination. It is an unfortunate marketing term employed by PADI. They really should change it. Are there people with AOW certification who actually believe that they are advanced divers? That would be bizarre, to say the least.:11:

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think the thing to remember is that this is a civilian class. You can't expect to do military style training and have the masses enjoy it. Granted I couldn't agree more with the suggestions that people made, its still not something that your typical vacation diver is going to want. I do agree that these classes need to be much more strict. Only problem is, they're driven by the almighty dollar and the desire to get things done as fast as possible. There's nothing wrong with escorting the divers around for thier first few dives to make sure they're comfortable in the water, but to call yourself an "advanced open water" diver... I would at least think that you would have the required skills to handle yourself under the water.

Well, better or more thorough training doesn't need to be at all military like. In fact, more thorough training is usually FAR easier than what we see in main stream training becasue requisit skills a REALLY learned before going on to other things. so much of the floundering and strugling just doesn't happen.

It might be slightly longer but much easier and even more enjoyable. It might even be more expensive but if you campare the return for the investment I think it will stand on it's own.

The issue is that it isn't training that's being marketed at all...it's access. One card results in the same access as another so it's the fastest and cheapest that usually wins.

People are buying the access even though the training is of little value. We see it every day. At any given time there are always threads here fom certified divers trying to find out how to descend (and other likewise basic skills). LOL, they have the access (the card) but they can't get under water without a strugle. LOL and once they get under, they have trouble getting from one place to the other or even getting back.
They paid their entry fee but if they want to learn to dive they are starting from square one.

 

[mikerault]

Like was said before, it all boils down to being responsible for your self. I also read several books (all I could find at the bookstore) on diving before my first class. I had all my work done before class and tried to learn as much as I could. I took PPB as my first specialty, then Nitrox, then AOW and Rescue Diver. I really am just beginning to feel competent with 137 dives under my belt most in cold, low viz water. Itis kind of scary to realize I have more experience than many folks calling themselves DMs and Instructors.

I talk to "divers" around here and I invite them to come dive with us Lake Lanier Looneys and they usually turn me down since it is "Lake" diving. I look at all diving as skill building. I'll tell you what, if you are able to do a square search pattern in 5-10 viz water in a drysuit in 50 degree water then doing it in 100+ feet of viz at 70+ degrees in a dive skin is a snap. Ditto on holding a 15 foot stop when you can't see the bottom or any visual clues to help you hold the level.

Anyway, just wanted to chime in. As with most training, you get out of it what you put in it, a good instructor is a big help, but good students are even better. I teach a lot of computer seminars and have seen the motivated students and those that are there to get out of work, and those that expect you to spoon feed every crumb of knowledge.

Here is a copy of a blog I did on this that sums up my feelings:

http://www.scubamage.com/files/Personal_Responsibility.pdf

Mike

 

[stablgr]

I'm sorry but the emphasis placed on quality of training seems to vary wildly from agency to agency. I initially qualified as a PADI open water and dry suit diver with most of my diving in the North Sea. Keen to improve my abilities I looked closer at the SSAC and BSAC both providing, in my opinion, more rigorous and comprehensive training. I finally went with BSAC and progressed through Dive Leader (PADI= Master Scuba Diver) and on towards Advanced Diver (PADI= ????), and perhaps one day First Class Diver, before even considering instruction.

PADI in my opinion is a far more commercially oriented enterprise and is less focussed on training competent and capable divers. Don't get me wrong, that's not to say that all PADI divers are incompetent.... FAR FROM IT. I just believe that they instill a belief that when you reach Master Suba Diver there is no further training available apart from heading off in the professional ladder. BSCA and others provide further levels of training far above and beyond PADI's "top recreational level"

I'm sure this will attract some interesting replies, but hey that's what this forum is all about isn't it?

 

[Garrobo]

AOW as it is advertised and usually sold is a bunch of BS. A cash cow for the agencies and LDS's.

 

[DiverBizz]

For PADI the AOW is giving the new OW cert. individual a chance to get out and dive and get money. Some individuals love the title AOW. I love AOW titile with someone who has 11 dives and someone else with OW having 900 dives.