Boat capsized in pompano beach?

[peterbj7]

In NSW Captains are REQUIRED to have all on board wearing life vests BEFORE attempting to cross a dangerous sandbar

But what is "dangerous"? Sounds well-nigh impossible to enforce.

 

[Wookie]

But what is "dangerous"? Sounds well-nigh impossible to enforce.

And there is the rub. The US Coast Guard promulgates rules that have some amount of leeway for the Captain to make the call. If he makes the wrong call, they have a gotcha to hang him with. As long as no one ever gets hurt (I'd bet that that particular dive boat navigated that inlet hundreds or thousands of times without incident) there is no problem, but when just one person gets hurt, the Coast Guard can come back and say that they had a rule and the Captain failed to follow it.

That's why they call us professionals. We get paid to make judgement calls regarding the safety of our passengers. Sometimes we make the wrong call and get hung for it. You are a professional Scuba Instructor. God forbid you make an improper judgement call regarding one of your students. God forbid I make a poor judgement call regarding the safety of my passengers. If or when I do, I stand ready to defend my call and have insurance to back it up.

Capt Martin of Wave Dancer fame made a bad judgement call too.....

 

[rjack321]

And there is the rub. The US Coast Guard promulgates rules that have some amount of leeway for the Captain to make the call. If he makes the wrong call, they have a gotcha to hang him with. As long as no one ever gets hurt (I'd bet that that particular dive boat navigated that inlet hundreds or thousands of times without incident) there is no problem, but when just one person gets hurt, the Coast Guard can come back and say that they had a rule and the Captain failed to follow it.

That's why they call us professionals. We get paid to make judgement calls regarding the safety of our passengers. Sometimes we make the wrong call and get hung for it. You are a professional Scuba Instructor. God forbid you make an improper judgement call regarding one of your students. God forbid I make a poor judgement call regarding the safety of my passengers. If or when I do, I stand ready to defend my call and have insurance to back it up.

Capt Nigel of Wind Dancer fame made a bad judgement call too.....

Coast Guard district 13 (the Pacific Northwest not including Alaska) has the authority to close ocean bars to traffic. They are the only Ditsrict with this congressional authority and they use it. The Columbia (River) bar is the most noteworthy and famous bar which is closed at times. USCG: Oregon/Washington Coast - 13th Coast Guard District - Guardians of the Pacific Northwest

 

[Wookie]

Coast Guard district 13 (the Pacific Northwest not including Alaska) has the authority to close ocean bars to traffic. They are the only Ditsrict with this congressional authority and they use it. The Columbia (River) bar is the most noteworthy and famous bar which is closed at times. USCG: Oregon/Washington Coast - 13th Coast Guard District - Guardians of the Pacific Northwest

I have crossed the Colombia River Bar as well as the San Francisco bar in heavy weather. Neither is something to mess with. The Coast Guard trains their crews at Colombia River Bar on the old surf boats (44 footer), but I don't know about where the 47 footer training takes place....

 

[DandyDon]

Put a diver in mask, fins and snorkel, as if the boat sank ( say in the space of 5 minutes it went down).
What possible excuse is there for a DIVER not to be able to either swim to shore( if it is within 5 miles and there is no outgoing tide or current) OR, to stay horizontal, relaxed, and breathing comfortably through the snorkel for even an entire day, if not longer.

For a huge percentage of divers out on boats, there is the potential for swimming to shore, or to an area where many other boasts could be found( potential rescuers). The pfd wearer floats on the surface 100% helpless and generating no body heat from swimming--meaning hypothermia is much more likely to visit the pfd wearer, much sooner.

As relevant to this thread---the safety of divers on a boat entering an area of some danger, and how to best ensure their continued safety....Should the Captain tell divers to don pfd's in this case, or would this be foolish, given MUCH BETTER OPTIONS open to "divers". And again, if anyone thinks the danger to protect against is unconsciousness, that is NOT what a pfd is made for.....for this you need a bike helmet, a whitewater kayak helmet, or a football helmet type solution. This will likely PREVENT your becoming unconscious. An unconscious person in the water with a pfd could easily drown, particularly if they were in a boat that just flipped over. So...Either protect your head so you can take a huge hit and stay conscious, or, find a way to avoid the hit.

5 minutes?! I doubt that luxury happens often among the sinking emergencies. Not the last known Cozumel sinking when a guy I know shouted "grab anything that float" - but that one did float near the surface for a few minutes so he could free dive for BCs. Swim 5 miles in snorkel gear without my vest? I doubt I could, and I see others in worse shape. Gym talk.

 

[danvolker]

5 minutes?! I doubt that luxury happens often among the sinking emergencies. Not the last known Cozumel sinking when a guy I know shouted "grab anything that float" - but that one did float near the surface for a few minutes so he could free dive for BCs. Swim 5 miles in snorkel gear without my vest? I doubt I could, and I see others in worse shape. Gym talk.

Don, the point is, in most sinkings you don't have a boat flipping over with zero time for divers to get in the water...and for the potential to be knocked unconscious to be so high as in the pitchforking of the cat.
Usually divers will be able to jump in the water...either with fins mask and snorkel in hand, or wearing them.
Usually, divers will have wet suits on, and this is certainly worth doing on purpose if the weather is nasty, and you see any potential for ending up in the water due to a sinking. With a wetsuit on, or a dry suit, a diver SHOULD NOT NEED A SNORKEL VEST or a BC or a PFD, as the wet suit or dry suit adds huge bouyancy to the diver, and does not slow their swimming down so much.
But if you have your wetsuit on, and also wanted your snorkel vest, fine. The fins and mask and snorkel will be awsome tools, to get you where you want to be next.

5 miles, if you are in no rush, just making a leisurely swim, is not really so far with wet suit bouyancy, and that is extreme anyway--off of Palm Beach, most of our reefs are more like 2 miles out or less.

This is NOT gym talk. This is the talk of self sufficiency and planning.

 

[DandyDon]

Don, the point is, in most sinkings you don't have a boat flipping over with zero time for divers to get in the water...and for the potential to be knocked unconscious to be so high as in the pitchforking of the cat.
Usually divers will be able to jump in the water...either with fins mask and snorkel in hand, or wearing them.
Usually, divers will have wet suits on, and this is certainly worth doing on purpose if the weather is nasty, and you see any potential for ending up in the water due to a sinking. With a wetsuit on, or a dry suit, a diver SHOULD NOT NEED A SNORKEL VEST or a BC or a PFD, as the wet suit or dry suit adds huge bouyancy to the diver, and does not slow their swimming down so much.
But if you have your wetsuit on, and also wanted your snorkel vest, fine. The fins and mask and snorkel will be awsome tools, to get you where you want to be next.

5 miles, if you are in no rush, just making a leisurely swim, is not really so far with wet suit bouyancy, and that is extreme anyway--off of Palm Beach, most of our reefs are more like 2 miles out or less.

This is NOT gym talk. This is the talk of self sufficiency and planning.

A completely donned wetsuit would be totally different, sure - but not common. Many don't don them until they're close to the drop site, then remove them before heading in. If you do wear one all the way on tho, that's different - no more floatation needed by most.

A 5 mile swim would take me all day I am sure, and I'd want some sort of flotation for the rest breaks. Ha! I remember the last time I took my kids on a 5 mile hike.

 

[danvolker]

A completely donned wetsuit would be totally different, sure - but not common. Many don't don them until they're close to the drop site, then remove them before heading in. If you do wear one all the way on tho, that's different - no more floatation needed by most.

A 5 mile swim would take me all day I am sure, and I'd want some sort of flotation for the rest breaks. Ha! I remember the last time I took my kids on a 5 mile hike.

If conditions looked really crazy..seas huge, wind roaring, wouldn't it make you feel smarter to put on your full wetsuit? If there was zero reason for concern, then of course no wet suit...but if things are dicey--and that IS what we are talking about...then the diver should not be oblivious to the threat, and the idea of putting on the wet suit and getting some measure of self sufficiency should come to mind.

Don, this discussion started because of an approach to an inlet, so we are talking litterally hundreds of yards...not even a mile to make shore...not to mention nearby boats.
You are big on accident stats, so how many dive boat sinkings are there in a year, and what is the average distance from shore where the sinkings occur? One would expect this to be close to inlets, where things will be far worse than in deep water. But the stats should tell the story about off shore also...if no stats on this can be found, then we take each major dive destination in the US and the Carribean, and determine the average distance between its typical reefs, and the shore for each destination.....I think most will be less than 2 miles, but the average will be skewed a bit by extreme sites like North East Florida or North Carolina or the few other places where divers might need to be out over 20 miles from shore. Personally, I would not combine this, as it is an entirely different risk set--it is a much harsher diving environment also. Where diving off of Palm Beach or Grand Cayman, you can see the shore when you surface...But--- off of Jacksonville and 20 miles out, forget your view, you want a personal GPS and maybe Nautilus Lifeline.

 

[Wookie]

I'll disagree. I think dive boats tend to sink very fast, far faster than you could grab a life jacket, mask and snerk, or a BCD. Looking at a few recent examples, the Get Wet in Key Largo last year, this incident, Sunset Party Cat in Key West 2 years ago, Wave Dancer, etc. The reason there were fatalities is that it happened fast. If it was a normal vessel with intact damage stability, they sink slow, allowing folks to get whatever protective gear they need and abandon ship in an orderly fashion.

 

[danvolker]

I'll disagree. I think dive boats tend to sink very fast, far faster than you could grab a life jacket, mask and snerk, or a BCD. Looking at a few recent examples, the Get Wet in Key Largo last year, this incident, Sunset Party Cat in Key West 2 years ago, Wind Dancer, etc. The reason there were fatalities is that it happened fast. If it was a normal vessel with intact damage stability, they sink slow, allowing folks to get whatever protective gear they need and abandon ship in an orderly fashion.

All the more reason to wear a wetsuit if the conditions are looking scary....and to have mask snorkel and fins handy.
The one time really thought the charter boat I was on would likely get broached, I PUT ON my mask, snorkel and fins before the threat looked like it was imminent....a couple of minutes from the inlet.