BP/W: I officially don't get it

[bill22]

Maybe for some people/configurations, but I never found any difference between jackets and BP/W rigs at the surface except that I rode higher in a jacket, and found it easier to recline on my back in a BP/W, which made face-up surface swims a bit easier and more efficient. Floating any way I wanted in a BP/W on the surface was easy on day one, with no practice, and no training other than advice from the internet about how to set it up.

This was my experience also. I find it quite comfortable laying on my back at the surface. I didn't think anything was particularly difficult when I was transitioning, but it was different....

I found it a little trickier getting out of it on the surface. When I went to Tubbataha in April they wanted us to take our gear off in the water and hand it up to the boatman on the chase boat, which I hadn't had to do previously in the bp/w. I had to make sure I held on to my crotch strap while I was getting out of the harness else everything would float up behind me and I'd catch the 1st stage and tank valve in the back of my head

I also never had anyone show me anything. Like you, I just figured it out, based on what I read on the internet and through personal experience. I seem to recall that you were one of the people that I got advice from over on the scubatoys forum (thanks Matt ) None of the people who dive in my club were using a bp/w at the time, although one of the young guys who just got certified later ended up going with the exact bp/w setup that I have I found myself in the position of helping him setup his gear the first time

I would guess that a lot of us who dive bp/w's now, had a fair number of dives in when we switched (I'm sure there are a few exceptions) It might have been a little easier for us because of that. When I switched, I had 300+ dives. I'm sure that helped

 

[MSilvia]

How much lift is your bladder?

~30 lb singles wing used with LP72s and HP100s. ~40 lb doubles wing used with HP100s. How much lift are yours?

I know FOR A FACT that if I fully inflate my wing at the surface it will push me face down into the water. Thats why I like to dive with it. I just "hang" from my gear. I "recline" in my gear to, but I have to lean way back and kick to get up on top of my gear to get to that position.

I know for a fact that if I inflate my wing fully on the surface, I can comfortably float upright, face-up, or face-down without ANY difficulty, or noticeable tenancy to tip one way or the other, regardless of whether I'm diving with a smallish single tank or HP100 doubles. Despite this, I don't have any trouble attaining horizontal trim when I want to.

Now, I only dive my wing when I am doing my tech diving and have a large bladder. But the basic design of a wing is to push you forward...

I think you and I have a fundamental difference in our understanding of what a BP/W is meant to do. You've repeatedly stated that it's meant to push you forward. I believe it's meant to collocate your buoyancy and ballast so you can easily get into whatever position you want. In my experience, most of the potential downsides of diving with a BP/W come from choosing unnecessarily large wings, and I consider being forced into a position a major downside. Personally, I have trouble imagining a situation where I'd need more than 50 lbs of lift in my wing, and even that much lift would only be appropriate for me if I was diving with Asahi HP100 doubles, and a heavy tool bag in cold water.

If you choose to configure your gear to push you face down, that's fine, but you should understand that it does that because of your configuration choices and not because of something inherent in the design of wings in general.

 

[cool_hardware52]

This was my experience also. I find it quite comfortable laying on my back at the surface. I didn't think anything was particularly difficult when I was transitioning, but it was different....

I found it a little trickier getting out of it on the surface.

Take the back up reg bungee off your neck, and unloop the 7 ft primary hose.

Open the waist strap, and drop the crotch strap.

Inflate the wing enough to float the rig

Grab the tank valve and pull the rig over your head. Keep the primary in your mouth while you do it. The rig ends up in front of you. Simple, easy.

Tobin

 

[redacted]

Take the back up reg bungee off your neck, and unloop the 7 ft primary hose.

Open the waist strap, and drop the crotch strap.

Inflate the wing enough to float the rig

Grab the tank valve and pull the rig over your head. Keep the primary in your mouth while you do it. The rig ends up in front of you. Simple, easy.

Tobin

My technique is a little different. Since I'm almost always doing this to hand my rig up to a boat, I clip off my long hose and switch to my secondary (with bungee removed from around neck. Then air up the wing enough to float, release the waist buckle (I don't use a crotch strap). raise arms and exhale. I drop out of the rig and catch the valve as I go by bringing the rig overe my head and in front.

I clip off the long hose 2nd so it does not get beat around being dragged along 5 ft behind the boat hand.

 

[cool_hardware52]

My technique is a little different. Since I'm almost always doing this to hand my rig up to a boat, I clip off my long hose and switch to my secondary (with bungee removed from around neck. Then air up the wing enough to float, release the waist buckle (I don't use a crotch strap). raise arms and exhale. I drop out of the rig and catch the valve as I go by bringing the rig overe my head and in front.

I clip off the long hose 2nd so it does not get beat around being dragged along 5 ft behind the boat hand.

Same basic idea, should work fine. I might try that next time I have the need.

Tobin

 

[matt_w]

Today, in the light if this thread I tried to just relax on the surface to see how my BP/W will behave. It was about 50% inflated and once I relaxed I tend to fall on my back as the tanks were pulling me backwards once I passed past the vertical line. No problem with face down at all.

I have to intentionally lean forward with my wing way overinflated to end up face down in either singles or doubles, but maybe I am just comfortable in it. I do like to lean back and float my entire body out of the water on top of doubles wing. It is a nice way to sun bathe.

As a side note on wing size. A 46 lb wing will float my 215lbs, 6lb plate, can light, 2 backup lights, etc. Completely out of the water with LP 80s, 85s or 95s. There appears to be some on this forum that think you need that much lift to dive with a single 80..

Someone else mentioned the bigger wing being useful if you were caught in a downdraft...I believe an appropriate sized wing would be a much greater advantage since it would drag a lot less in the water. People should wear gear they are comfortable with and ensure they are using it correctly. We all have our own comfort levels. I have done a little over 1000 dives in 25 years, I only started using a BP/W about 18 months ago when I was preparing to go for my Cavern and Cave class. I had used back inflate BCs for many years prior to that.

I dive BP/W almost exclusively now. I am more comfortable, it is easier to swim, I use less air. This is all me. Everyone needs to find what works for them. There is no right answer for everyone.

We should move into the ditchable weight debate now

 

[joker31]

~30 lb singles wing used with LP72s and HP100s. ~40 lb doubles wing used with HP100s. How much lift are yours?

70 lb with my steel HP 120s

I have my views wrong. I love my BP/W. I also love my bcj. It just depends on what diving I do as to what I wear. I wear my bcj when diving with students, because that is what most of them wear. I have never had any problems with my setup. However, I see alot of students come in that have bought a BP/W and once they "get it" no problems. It just seems the students fight it a little more at first then the bcj.

Again it all comes down to preference...

 

[MSilvia]

70 lb with my steel HP 120s

I'm not terribly surprised to hear that a wing that size will make you face plant, as it has as much capacity as both of my wings combined. What is it you prefer about having a 70lb wing? I'm genuinely curious, as it seems grossly excessive by my standards.

My HP100s are the Genesis/Asahi type that are each -11.5 when full... about a pound more negative than a HP120. Since I think a wing in the 40-50 lb range is pretty sweet with my doubles, I'm wondering what the extra 20-30 lbs of lift in your wing is for. Do you use steel stage bottles or something?

 

[Gombessa]

I'm not terribly surprised to hear that a wing that size will make you face plant, as it has as much capacity as both of my wings combined. What is it you prefer about having a 70lb wing? I'm genuinely curious, as it seems grossly excessive by my standards.

Agreed completely. 70lb is really a lot of lift for a typical doubles setup.

My cold water singles wing is 30lb for Lp80/95s, and my doubles wing is 44lb for LP80s (and that's a bit too much lift to begin with).

I've been pushed face-down with a 40lb singles wing when wearing almost no exposure protection, but that's grossly excessive lift for the job, and IME it's totally a function of whether your configuration is balanced.

 

[cool_hardware52]

70 lb with my steel HP 120s

I have my views wrong. I love my BP/W. I also love my bcj. It just depends on what diving I do as to what I wear. I wear my bcj when diving with students, because that is what most of them wear. I have never had any problems with my setup. However, I see alot of students come in that have bought a BP/W and once they "get it" no problems. It just seems the students fight it a little more at first then the bcj.

Again it all comes down to preference...

2 x 120's hold ~20 lbs or air or nitrox. If you start the dive negative by the weight of your back gas, with enough wing capacity in reserve to deal with a total loss of Drysuit buoyancy one would need a drysuit that's 70 - 20 = 50!!! lbs positive

Tobin