Buddies kept grabbing/pulling me to ascend faster than computer said was safe

[BFRedrocks]

That's it!!! You really can't think of any other reasons???

Worded poorly by me I guess. Actually, I can think of a lot of other reasons why it would be necessary, but based on the 100 or so other posts in this thread, I didn't feel like writing them all out (hence the "other mentioned reasons...").

 

[Storker]

unless you are dropping off the wall uncontrollably (or the other mentioned reasons like unconsciousness), there is no reason for a one diver to put their hands on another diver.

I guess I should've been lynched then, since I've put my hand on my buddy more than once although he wasn't 'dropping off the wall uncontrollably'. Typically, it was a light touch to get his attention to point out a cool critter when he was looking the other way for a few seconds.

---------- Post added April 29th, 2015 at 07:27 PM ----------

Don't let a little thing like not knowing how to ascend from 90' bother you... It's over rated... And alway stare at your computer to tell you what to do... It's all you need to do... Now go get your Dive Master card so you can start train the next class of divers...

I guess you've never been inexperienced. And even fewer times encountered "old time", "veteran" divers with totally inappropriate and outdated ideas about what safe diving is about...

 

[Jack Hammer]

I don't think most people are attacking the OP, just trying to get at what occurred and why. My experience is the truth of something generally lies somewhere between 2 sides of a story, we only have one side.

People, myself included, can misinterpret events that they are part of. this is seen quite frequently in training classes where there students watch a video of themselves performing a skill. I was quite surprised to see how I actually performed versus how I felt I performed.

Sent via

 

[Crowley]

okay folks I think we're moving out of 'Basic Scuba Discussions' and addressing the original question from the OP. Some people are getting downright nasty; others are spouting nonsense which only demonstrates their ignorance of the subject matter. The OP asked if the "advanced" divers were right to haul her out of the water and without their input we can only address the information we are given. The OP has admitted to making some newbie mistakes - and we were ALL newbies once upon a time - but the question of being pulled up faster than she was comfortable with, at an ascent rate that violated her computer's monitor, I think has been addressed. As with all dive reports, we will never know all the facts unless all parties are present but it is my considered opinion that the situation could have been handled better by her buddies at the time, with care and assistance rather than imposition of will, and the diver has asked the question in the Basic forum and some of the attitudes displayed here make me sincerely hope that she never has to dive with the posters.

Let's get back onto helping divers understand why a situation may have arisen, rather than condemning an inexperienced diver for not being perfect.

plink plink plink.

Crowley

 

[oldschoolto]

Not to tangent off topic, but I was curious...So your wife has 100 dives and yet has only gone deeper than 60 feet three times? When I first read "new" diver with 100 dives I was thinking that wouldn't necessarily make her new in my book, but if she has 95 dives at less than 60 feet for ~30 minutes/dive, I guess 100 dives like that can provide a much different skill set than say doing 50 dives at 80+ feet for 50 minutes/dive for the same 100 total.

Kinda fits with the earlier comment where someone mentioned that a diver who's been "doing it for 30 years," but only doing a few dives per year, will have much less experience and knowledge (likely) than a 5-year diver who does 50 dives/year in deep, cold, current, etc. So you can't get much from the person who says, "Listen to me...I've been diving for 30 years." FWIW, I still agree that unless you are dropping off the wall uncontrollably (or the other mentioned reasons like unconsciousness), there is no reason for a one diver to put their hands on another diver.

She is a " NEW diver " almost all in the 30' to 60' range in both cold fresh waters and warm salty waters... Dives is in the 50 to 70 minute range.. All in the past 2 years or so... She is learning, She listens to divers that have been there and done that... She has very solid skills... I'm very proud of her and "KNOW" she can handle anything that comes her way...

And as far as the other divers, They ( ALL 3 ) were trying to get her to increase her ascent... she was only grabbed when she refused... Like you said, we were not there...


Jim...

I just wanted to add... I said she should get a mentor, I said that her crappy training is not her fault... Can I be a smart a$$ in my posts ? YES... I see the problems with new divers is they get handed ratings and pushed to get the next one and have no skills to work with... Diving is FUN, But it'll kill you faster than you think... Baby steps... It's not a race to get the most cards...

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

The original poster should be careful what she wishes for. At least in this case she was paired with buddies that observed what was going on and took action when things appeared to be going badly. Far more common is buddies that are completely unaware.

From a risk management standpoint running out of gas and either drowning or having arterial gas embolism is far more likely than having DCS due to ascent rates. If you look at the DAN accident statistics DCS due to ascent rates will be nowhere to be found. Yes ascent rates are part of the DCS models, but not running out of gas is paramount. They appear to have had reason to be concerned. Good pre and post dive communication is usually the solution here. Just tell your buddies that they could have communicated differently, but appreciate that they were doing their part.

 

[azmodan50]

"Narcosis isn't relevant - you don't "learn to deal with it" you remove it."

Would "LOVE" to hear how you do that , Without going tri-mix.... Some people start showing signs of narcosis at 60'... And EVERY dive is a DECO dive....

How are you even giving any advice when you are completely clueless on this basic information. Here, from two different medical sites:

Nitrogen Narcosis Treatment

• Ascend from the depth at which the symptoms become apparent.
• If symptoms fail to resolve after ascent, narcosis is not the cause of the symptoms.

and

The effects of nitrogen narcosis are totally reversed as the gas pressure decreases. They are typically gone by the time the diver returns to a water depth of 60 ft.


So that's how you remove it. You ascend, just like everyone is taught in basic scuba class. To even suggest that the OP was narc'd at 15ft is ludicrous.

 

[oldschoolto]

How are you even giving any advice when you are completely clueless on this basic information. Here, from two different medical sites:

Nitrogen Narcosis Treatment

• Ascend from the depth at which the symptoms become apparent.
• If symptoms fail to resolve after ascent, narcosis is not the cause of the symptoms.

and

The effects of nitrogen narcosis are totally reversed as the gas pressure decreases. They are typically gone by the time the diver returns to a water depth of 60 ft.


So that's how you remove it. You ascend, just like everyone is taught in basic scuba class. To even suggest that the OP was narc'd at 15ft is ludicrous.

I think you need to do a little reading...

Signs and symptoms[edit]

Narcosis can produce tunnel vision, making it difficult to read multiple gauges.​

Due to its perception-altering effects, the onset of narcosis may be hard to recognize.^[6][7] At its most benign, narcosis results in relief of anxiety – a feeling of tranquility and mastery of the environment. These effects are essentially identical to various concentrations of nitrous oxide. They also resemble (though not as closely) the effects of alcohol or marijuana and the familiar benzodiazepine drugs such as diazepam and alprazolam.^[8] Such effects are not harmful unless they cause some immediate danger not to be recognized and addressed. Once stabilized, the effects generally remain the same at a given depth, only worsening if the diver ventures deeper.^[9]
The most dangerous aspects of narcosis are the impairment of judgement, multi-tasking and coordination, and the loss of decision-making ability and focus. Other effects include vertigo and visual or auditory disturbances. The syndrome may cause exhilaration, giddiness, extreme anxiety, depression, or paranoia, depending on the individual diver and the diver's medical or personal history. When more serious, the diver may feel overconfident, disregarding normal safe diving practices.^[10]
The relation of depth to narcosis is sometimes informally known as "Martini's law", the idea that narcosis results in the feeling of onemartini for every 10 m (33 ft) below 20 m (66 ft) depth. Professional divers use such a calculation only as a rough guide to give new divers a metaphor, comparing a situation they may be more familiar with.^[11]
Reported signs and symptoms are summarized against typical depths in meters and feet of sea water in the following table:^[10]

Pressure (bar)	Depth (m)	Depth (ft)	Comments
1–2	0–10	0–33	Unnoticeable minor symptoms, or no symptoms at all
2–4	10–30	33–100	Mild impairment of performance of unpracticed tasks Mildly impaired reasoning Mild euphoria possible
4–6	30–50	100–165	Delayed response to visual and auditory stimuli Reasoning and immediate memory affected more than motor coordination Calculation errors and wrong choices Idea fixation Over-confidence and sense of well-being Laughter and loquacity (in chambers) which may be overcome by self-control Anxiety (common in cold murky water)
6–8	50–70	165–230	Sleepiness, impaired judgment, confusion Hallucinations Severe delay in response to signals, instructions and other stimuli Occasional dizziness Uncontrolled laughter, hysteria (in chamber) Terror in some
8–10	70–90	230–300	Poor concentration and mental confusion Stupefaction with some decrease in dexterity and judgment Loss of memory, increased excitability
10+	90+	300+	Hallucinations Increased intensity of vision and hearing Sense of impending blackout, euphoria, dizziness, levitation, manic or depressive states Disorganization of the sense of time, changes in facial appearance Unconsciousness, Death

Causes[edit]

Some components of breathing gases and their relative narcotic potencies:[2][FN 1][3]
Gas	Relative narcotic potency
He	0.045
Ne	0.3
H2	0.6
N2	1.0
O2	1.7
Ar	2.3
Kr	7.1
CO2	20.0
Xe	25.6

The cause of narcosis is related to the increased solubility of gases in body tissues, as a result of the elevated pressures at depth (Henry's law).^[12] Modern theories have suggested that inert gases dissolving in the lipid bilayer of cell membranes cause narcosis.^[13] More recently, researchers have been looking at neurotransmitter receptor protein mechanisms as a possible cause of narcosis.^[14] The breathing gas mix entering the diver's lungs will have the same pressure as the surrounding water, known as the ambient pressure. After any change of depth, the pressure of gases in the blood passing through the brain catches up with ambient pressure within a minute or two, which results in a delayed narcotic effect after descending to a new depth.^[6][15] Rapid compression potentiates narcosis owing to carbon dioxide retention.^[16][17]
A divers' cognition may be affected on dives as shallow as 10 m (33 ft), but the changes are not usually noticeable.^[18] There is no reliable method to predict the depth at which narcosis becomes noticeable, or the severity of the effect on an individual diver, as it may vary from dive to dive even on the same day.^[6][17]
Significant impairment due to narcosis is an increasing risk below depths of about 30 m (100 ft), corresponding to an ambient pressure of about 4 bar (400 kPa).^[6] Most sport scuba training organizations recommend depths of no more than 40 m (130 ft) because of the risk of narcosis.^[11] When breathing air at depths of 90 m (300 ft) – an ambient pressure of about 10 bar (1,000 kPa) – narcosis in most divers leads to hallucinations, loss of memory, and unconsciousness.^[16][19] A number of divers have died in attempts to set air depth records below 120 m (400 ft). Because of these incidents,Guinness World Records no longer reports on this figure.^[20]
Narcosis has been compared with altitude sickness insofar as its variability (though not its symptoms); its effects depend on many factors, with variations between individuals. Thermal cold, stress, heavy work, fatigue, and carbon dioxide retention all increase the risk and severity of narcosis.^[4][6] Carbon dioxide has a high narcotic potential and also causes increased blood flow to the brain, increasing the effects of other gases.^[21] Increased risk of narcosis results from increasing the amount of carbon dioxide retained through heavy exercise, shallow or skip breathing, or because of poor gas exchange in the lungs.^[22]
Narcosis is known to be additive to even minimal alcohol intoxication,^[23][24] and also to the effects of other drugs such as marijuana (which is more likely than alcohol to have effects that last into a day of abstinence from use).^[25] Other sedative and analgesic drugs, such as opiate narcotics and benzodiazepines, add to narcosis.^[23]
Mechanism[edit]

Illustration of a lipid bilayer, typical of a cell membrane, showing thehydrophilic heads on the outside andhydrophobic tails inside​

The precise mechanism is not well understood, but it appears to be the direct effect of gas dissolving into nerve membranes and causing temporary disruption in nerve transmissions. While the effect was first observed with air, other gases including argon, krypton and hydrogen cause very similar effects at higher than atmospheric pressure.^[26] Some of these effects may be due to antagonism....








And I and others have made 100's of deep dives on air... Diving under the effects of narcosis is very doable....

"Narcosis has been compared with altitude sickness insofar as its variability (though not its symptoms); its effects depend on many factors, with variations between individuals. Thermal cold, stress, heavy work, fatigue, and carbon dioxide retention all increase the risk and severity of narcosis.^[4][6] Carbon dioxide has a high narcotic potential and also causes increased blood flow to the brain, increasing the effects of other gases.^[21] Increased risk of narcosis results from increasing the amount of carbon dioxide retained through heavy exercise, shallow or skip breathing, or because of poor gas exchange in the lungs.^[22]"

The diver also was sucking through her air tank with very ineffective breathing causing a possable carbon dioxide loading...

And to add to the people that say going up slow is not a problem... They need to do some reading on DECO and tissue loading...
Jim...

 

[boulderjohn]

I hesitated posting this because some people might deem it accusatory. It is not. It is just a description of an experience I had this past weekend. You can make of it as you will.

I was working with a bunch of students do a bunch of classes, and I had to plan each dive of the weekend with various individual goals and requirements in mind. Two of the students were DM candidates. They are required to lead dives for that certification. I had them lead dives on which I had other students perform skills. That meant that on a number of dives, the divemaster candidates led the ascents. They all had their noses in their computers as they ascended to make sure they did not exceed the recommended ascent rate. On the first such dive, we ascended at 12 FPM. After that, we had a discussion about the fact that it was too slow. The second time was a little faster. The fastest we ever did, a dive led by a divemaster candidate who had been counseled several times about slow ascents, was 20 FPM.

In a study published by DAN that compared 3 ascent rates, the one that came out best in terms of bubbling was 30 FPM. The one that came out second best was 60 FPM. The one that came out dead last was 10 FPM.

 

[Frosty]

I was on a dive where the depth was 90ft and this was only my second time going deep. I was certified PADI in April 2014 and AOW August 2014. I have a Galileo Luna dive computer. For those who don't have one, it has a bar on the right side that lets you know if you are ascending too fast. You are not supposed to go much further than halfway on the bar. I would also like to preface this story with the fact that I used 2474 psi during the dive and started with about 3100-3200 so when I surfaced I had between 626-726 psi so I would have had time to take a slower ascent. In addition, my computer said the dive lasted for 17 minutes. .

Alecia-Im trying to put myself in the boots of your dive buddies.
You did a dive for 17 minutes that was to about 90 feet and chewed through a heck of a lot of your air.
That's a heck of a lot of air even if you were diving a little 10l steel
My thinking is that your dive buddy would be panicking a bit that you were heading to a total out of air situation if you continued to ascend at the rate you were heading up at OR if there was something else going on they didn't want to tell you about.
The ascending too fast beep can happen if you are "yanked" upwards a yard or so because for that second in time you were ascending too fast.
They may have reacted badly but with you failing to ascend,being low on air and then appearing to refuse to ascend I can see what they would be thinking.